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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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All soft-core libertarian means is that you happen to support some of the things libertarians do - you could be a Republican, a Democrat, or whatever, but you're certainly not a Libertarian.
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Sonic
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:24
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57 (moderate liberitarian)
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*End Is Forever*
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Salford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Well, things like Social Security, welfare, etc., exist outside the US, just not called as such. The general gist of it seems clear, though. |
No.. (rant coming up).
The taxation questions for a start are ludicrous. It depends completely on where the level of taxation is to start with. Also, it suggests that tax-cutting is a political belief, which it isn't unless you're a nutter. You can believe in a certain level of taxation (say, "low tax") but holding a belief in cutting tax is ludicrous - what happens when you reach the "correct" level of taxation?
The only person who can answer "yes" to the taxation questions correctly is someone who does not believe in taxation at all.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
The taxation questions for a start are ludicrous. It depends completely on where the level of taxation is to start with. |
Not at all, it simply depends on whether someone agrees with taxes, or if they believe in high taxes. That is of course specific to your region, but it's still a valid question.
quote:
Also, it suggests that tax-cutting is a political belief, which it isn't unless you're a nutter. You can believe in a certain level of taxation (say, "low tax") but holding a belief in cutting tax is ludicrous - what happens when you reach the "correct" level of taxation? |
What's the "correct level of taxation"? If you mean the correct level according to your political ideology, then again, it's specific to the person, and certainly a political question.
If by "correct" you mean the best level from an economics standpoint, that's irrelevant to the question. Right and wrong don't necessarily have much to do with efficiency.
quote:
The only person who can answer "yes" to the taxation questions correctly is someone who does not believe in taxation at all. |
Of course. I answered "yes" to all those questions, because I don't believe in taxes. Hence I'm a hardcore Libertarian.
So you may disagree with the author of the test in terms of the "right" answer, but I don't see how you can question the validity of the questions themselves - it's a yes or no answer.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
Is it just me or has the test completely taken away the idea of being Libertarian left? I am a liberal, and I believe the Government should have no say in peoples private lives, but I do not want to privatise schools, police, or anything else really. |
Then you are not a libertarian, nor are you consistent. Government involvement in education, for example, is an intrusion into your private life, based upon the simple fact that such involvement requires heavy taxation on your property. Various other intrusions involve heavy taxes on your income.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:24
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I disagree, there are many thinkers who are Libertarian and Left (Keynes, Galbraith, Ghandi, most of our Liberal Democrat Party etc.) You can believe in a Libertarian state, and have libertarian social values, while still having leftist economic values. Left and right does not measure Libertarianism. Since right can be both authoritarian and liberal (Fascist and economically liberal, such as Milton Friedman) why can't left?
I don't see why tax has that much to do with libertarianism. Just because you are taxed, may take away some freedom, but not freedom of speech, thought, action etc. I may have less money, but I have not had my liberties diminished. I guess it's different in America.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
I disagree, there are many thinkers who are Libertarian and Left (Keynes, Galbraith, Ghandi, most of our Liberal Democrat Party etc.) You can believe in a Libertarian state, and have libertarian social values, while still having leftist economic values. Left and right does not measure Libertarianism. Since right can be both authoritarian and liberal (Fascist and economically liberal, such as Milton Friedman) why can't left? |
I'm sorry, but if you do not believe in Libertarian values of freedom, across the board, you are not a Libertarian. You see, Libertarianism is not primarily concerned with "economic policy" or "social policy" or "foreign policy". It is concerned primarily with freedom. Policies that encourage and promote freedom are good, while those that do not, are bad. That's a bit of a rough definition, but it'll do. In that sense, it is impossible to call yourself a Libertarian if you only believe in SOME freedom.
quote:
I don't see why tax has that much to do with libertarianism. Just because you are taxed, may take away some freedom, but not freedom of speech, thought, action etc. I may have less money, but I have not had my liberties diminished. I guess it's different in America. |
Your liberty to use your money as you please has certainly been diminished.
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SnowFire
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New York City, NY
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
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Hmm, I didn't quite imagine you as the arbiter of all things language DF. While you might be correct in that Libertarianism is mostly concerned about securing rights and freedom for people, you surely admit that there are possible degrees to that belief? There are anarcho-capatialists who might call themselves Libertarians as well as anarcho-socialists, and they probably have the most radical views on personal freedom of all, but they don't seem to try and monopolize the term. There are soft-core Libertarians who might just want a smaller government but not some of the more utopian provisions. There are Libertarians who seem Libertarian in most ways except for 1 or 2 issues that seem decidly statist to others (perhaps on abortion- the fetus's right to live overrides the mother's right to choose; or perhaps in education- they believe that public schools are invaluable for protecting freedom for the lesser priveleged.). Regardless of your disagreements on those issues, it would seem reasonable that they could still call themselves "Libertarians" with a clean conscience.
Now I can't say I know Drogue that well from 2 posts, but I'm sure he knows himself well, and I'm more inclined to agree with his assessment of himself than one gained from two posts. I know that your main concern is ideological purity and all that DF, but if you want to sell Libertarianism to the mainstream, you have to start somewhere- and wanting to privatize the police, highways, the FDA, etc. right off is not going to sit well with most people. I think it's perfectly fine to be a "moderate" Libertarian who might dramatically reduce government (especially as it interferes with private affairs) but not immediately privatize the whole shebang, myself.
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23-12-2002 04:27
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