24-12-2002 00:50									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Again, you miss my point. Economic help, be it through foreign aid or through military aid is still economic aid. How much money do those countries save by not having to maintain large armies in order to guarantee security. Would you rather have American troops in Israel and no aid, even if it would cost more?

The US does not give Europe and Japan economic aid. We US bases troops in these places for its own strategic purposes. That Japan and Germany spend relatively little on defense is only partly a reult of US prescence (which again, is self-serving for the US) and also fron specific internal political decisions. As is, Japan spends 32 billion plus a year on the military, one of the largest military spenders int he world, while germany certainly does not have 'a small army', plus Germany at least, now provided troops for peace-keeping operations. Britian and France both maintain large militaries with long-range capabilities.

It is also very hard to compare the relations between the 'great' powers, and relations between great powers and minor ones:

The US: 280 million people, world's largest economy
Japan: 120 million world's 2nd economy
Germany: 80 million, world's 4th (or 3rd, depending were you place China) economy.
France and Britian: both about 60 million, worlds 5th and 6th economies (which is which, I don't remember)

Israel: 6 million, worlds' twenty or thirty something economy (1/3 the US's yearly military budget)

So Israel is not in the same league as the 'big'boys. Add ot this the billions upon bilions of dolars that Japanese, French, British, and German corporations and individuals invest in the US, and the millions of US workers employeed directly by the companies of these states. Israel has nothing at all to match this.

	24-12-2002 01:08									#32
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quote: It is a singular relation

these days, yes. In the day, both the US, and the SU invested lots of money in other countries. The US defended the Europeans against the Soviet Union, for free. Sure, Germany and Britain have great armies, but they'd crumle against the Red Army, esp in the 60s and 70s.

Israel is not in the same league as the big boys? of course! what's your point?

quote: As is, Japan spends 32 billion plus a year on the military

I thought it was fixed at 1% of GDP , a MUCH higher figure...


P.S. The trillion dollar figure is bogus, IMO.

	24-12-2002 01:25									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel these days, yes. In the day, both the US, and the SU invested lots of money in other countries. The US defended the Europeans against the Soviet Union, for free. Sure, Germany and Britain have great armies, but they'd crumle against the Red Army, esp in the 60s and 70s.

Woah, hold on there. The US maintained a nuclear arsenal to "defend against Russia". At any point during the Cold War, the Red Army would have swept aside NATO forces in a conventional conflict. The US military presence there was to give forward bases and to make a statement, namely that you'd have to take on the US if you wanted to strike west. Even NATO command didn't expect their conventional forces to last more than a couple of days against a full onslaught by the Red Army, even with US forces there.

	24-12-2002 01:32									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki At any point during the Cold War, the Red Army would have swept aside NATO forces in a conventional conflict.

Kind of like they "swept" asside Finland in 1938?

No way, The Soviets lacked Technology and Air power
verus the west. Their best chance of invading was in
1945.

	24-12-2002 01:34									#35
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Ermm, It was just an example. I could be wrong, but american forces numbers weren't just symbolical, in relation to the local forces. Anyway, it was just an example. USSR supported Cuba, and Egypt, by giving them unimaginably favourable trade relations. (my dad was in the merchant marine in the USSR, and told me how the soviet central bank had to manipulate currency rates, so that countries that the SU sponspored would get a better deal. This went on for years. Most of the middle east countries own billions of dollars in arm shipments, Syria, for example hasn't yet paid the debt for the 73' war equipment, which at the time was top of the line. Help to Israel, as is help to Egypt these days, by the US, is a cold war relic.

	24-12-2002 04:19									#36
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What I don't understand is why people say it's worth it, paying Israel all this money?

Worth what - saving millions of lives? That could have been done for a fraction of this cost in East Timor, Rwanda and Cambodia to name a few places - so don't say it's about saving the lives of innocent people.

Also, why is it that a 1st World nation such as Israel is allowed to have it's huge loans quietly forgotten about when most of the 3rd World is kept in virtual slavery to the West just paying off the interest on their debts?

If the modern state of Israel hadn't been illegally carved out of Palestine in the first place, none of this would be happening!

Is this worth Sept 11th? (this guy should add the total cost of that attack to his figures IMO)

Is it worth having a target on your head if you're a US citizen (I saw this drunk Aussie guy abusing a couple of US tourists the other day because of Bali!), knowing that much of the World hates you?

I used to ridicule Americans for not venturing out of their own country to travel - now I don't blame them...

Why is it that the tail so obviously wags the dog when it comes to US policy on Israel???

Israel should clean up its own mess and the US should force them to do it!

	24-12-2002 04:32									#37
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[Rant snipped]

quote: Is this worth Sept 11th? (this guy should add the total cost of that attack to his figures IMO)

9/11 had nothing to do with Israel. Osama Bin Laden's issue was always about US troops in Saudi Arabia and the US attack of Iraq - neither of which have anything to do with Israel. It's only recently that Bin Laden has begun mentioning Israel -in order to gain suport in the Arab world. Heck, even Arafat doesn't believe the excuse.

[snip]

	24-12-2002 04:34									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Edan [Rant snipped] 9/11 had nothing to do with Israel.

Yeah right...

	24-12-2002 05:39									#39
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quote: I think it's terribly unreasonable that we should be asked to defray the costs of supressing a legitimate insurrection. Israel should pay for their gestapo tactics out of their own pocket. We'll help them defend themselves against external enemies.

I strongly contest with your use of the word gestapo.

I suggest you work better to find parallels between gestapo and Israel, other than they both had something to do with Jews.



As for the topic - Israel is a very loyal exporter of military technology to the US.

Many many of the technologies used in the war on terror are Israeli made.

The money that US gives us which we are forced to put back in weapons purchase, are infact almost the same as if the US would give money directly to the weapons industry.

It puts money in state industry, promoting it's growth. Can't see anything bad with that.

	24-12-2002 05:52									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov As for the topic - Israel is a very loyal exporter of military technology to the US.

And they very loyally get paid billions for it!

quote: It puts money in state industry, promoting it's growth. Can't see anything bad with that.

Funny that you wouldn't seeing as you're getting free weapons and the US Govt can keep its arms industry funded in a clandestine manner...

	24-12-2002 06:18									#41
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Yeah right...

Sorry, wouldn't want to spoil your rant with facts.

	24-12-2002 06:19									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Sorry, wouldn't want to spoil your rant with facts.

Says the guy who quotes Yasser Arafat...

	24-12-2002 06:30									#43
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Says the guy who quotes Yasser Arafat...

Hey, I don't like Arafat anymore than you appear not to . I was just pointing out that Bin Laden's gripe with Israel is an entirely new one, and is only a PR move.

	24-12-2002 09:23									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS What I don't understand is why people say it's worth it, paying Israel all this money? Worth what - saving millions of lives? That could have been done for a fraction of this cost in East Timor, Rwanda and Cambodia to name a few places - so don't say it's about saving the lives of innocent people. Also, why is it that a 1st World nation such as Israel is allowed to have it's huge loans quietly forgotten about when most of the 3rd World is kept in virtual slavery to the West just paying off the interest on their debts? If the modern state of Israel hadn't been illegally carved out of Palestine in the first place, none of this would be happening! Is this worth Sept 11th? (this guy should add the total cost of that attack to his figures IMO) Is it worth having a target on your head if you're a US citizen (I saw this drunk Aussie guy abusing a couple of US tourists the other day because of Bali!), knowing that much of the World hates you? I used to ridicule Americans for not venturing out of their own country to travel - now I don't blame them... Why is it that the tail so obviously wags the dog when it comes to US policy on Israel??? Israel should clean up its own mess and the US should force them to do it!

So this is all because of America's unflagging support for Israel? The way I see it America's support for Israel began in 1948 as an attempt to compensate the Jews for what Europe did to them. When the war was over millions of surviving Jews still found Europe a very hostile place. European anti-semitism did not magically disapppear in May, 1945. The US took in as many Jews between 1940 and 1950 as did immigrate to Israel. Many European nations also supported the immigration of Jews to Israel as a "solution" to their displaced persons problem. The US was then the only nation able to offer financial assistancethough. The US has remained faithful to its committment. You'd think that some of you guys across the seas might respect that. Yes there's a lot of nasty stuff being done in Israel, but it has always been a two way street.

	24-12-2002 10:42									#45
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I don't see why we have any business whatsover subsidizing a military occupation which is undermining the fundamental liberties of a couple million people.

	24-12-2002 11:04									#46
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quote: No way, The Soviets lacked Technology and Air power verus the west. Their best chance of invading was in 1945.

WHAT? In 1945, the Western Allies would have absolutely wiped the floor with the Soviet Union. Or perhaps you forget the fact that the US had an atomic monopoly, that the US and Britain and other allies accounted for over 60% of the world's GNP and manufacturing output, and the fact of absolute air superiority.

Not to mention a lot of other facts. You sure you aren't Serb's DL?

But for the topic at hand, here's my idea:

Use the US military to bomb the **** out of Israel and make them cut me a check for $5700. Please and thank you.

Seriously, though, we shouldn't be giving Israel ANYTHING.

	24-12-2002 11:46									#47
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Considering how much we fund them, I think it's pretty inexcusable how we allow Sharon to defy us. I think Israel's desstructive policies and their occupation is one of the chief sources of Moslem anger at the west. While we should insist on the preservation of a Jewish state in the Middle East, we should influence them to stop their occupation and come to a peace settlement.

Unfortuantely, what is preventing us from taking anything but a hardline pro-Israel stance is continued sympathy for Israel among the American people.

	24-12-2002 13:24									#48
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It is entirley due to internal US politics that the US supports Israel. In the 1950's when Nasser took over the Suez cannal the US did not support UK,France and Isarel in taking it back because there was no support at home. (It smacked of old fashioned imperialism)

If a majority of US population started to support the Palestinians over the Israelis, Israel would be dropped within months

	25-12-2002 02:04									#49
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It'd be quicker than that.... but old habits die hard, especially by the media.

	25-12-2002 03:14									#50
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the reasons more americans dont support the palestineans are the following:

1. Brainwashing by christian leaders. These same christian leaders think that all the jews will convert on the day of judgement. Their interest is purely based on religion.

2. We dont see our money going to israel. If more people knew about it i think wed all be really more pissed off. Well im pretty pissed off about israel and i wish every israeli would abandon that god forsaken land and move to america. The promised land isnt geographical, its a state of mind.

3. holocaust guilt. the holocaust was the singular most disgusting act on the planet ever. But i think that the powers that be went about everything the wrong way in trying to create this homeland. Its only lead to more problems.

and im tired of being called an antisemite every time i post my opinions on israel. I hate israel with a passion because it really is just a thorn in the side of the middle east and it jsut causes problems. The israeli people are a very stubborn bunch and this is why there will always be a great gnashing of teeth.

	25-12-2002 04:21									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Eli You dont want to waste money of Israeli missile defense systems? Fine, but remember that when there is no good defense pre-emptive attack is the only option. You dont want to spend money to help us deal with suicide bombings? Ok, but dont whine when because of lack of troops tens of Palestinians will start dying every day. You want us to be the only country who always supported you no matter what? You want to benefit from all the Israeli technologies that are getting installed in pretty much every piece of military equipment you build? You want to attack Iraq? You want us to stay quiet? Pay.

If there is a smart parasite country in this world it is Israel.

At least they sided with the ones who have money (unlike Cuba )