25-12-2002 12:44									#31
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quote: Further, death isn't a good way of teaching someone they did wrong. Dead men don't learn...they're just dead.

It's not the cop's duty to punish, and I'm pretty sure they didn't intend to.

If they judged the kid's actions to be a great threat to the public or to themselves, they have every right to open fire on him IMO, as long as they don't shoot to kill (although it's a very likely possibility).

All of this talk about other ways to deal with dangerous situations like taserguns and everything leaves me confused and wondering what that has to do with this case. I don't think every cop has access to that kind of stuff, and my instincts tell me the cops pulled the trigger when the kid did something threatening such as pointing a gun at the cops.

	25-12-2002 12:50									#32
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One thing that you might consider is that for these police officers, this incident will never be over. I'm sure they are asking themselves if they could have done something else that would have prevented this. You talk about how this makes you feel, put yourself in the position of a protector who has made the decision to take a life that now will be reviewed many times by others. It's an imperfect system for an imperfect world.

	25-12-2002 13:12									#33
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Asher, cops do not have taser guns and such. I'm sure ours don't. I think it is too expensive to have items like that. They have their club, pepper spray, flashlight, and their firarms (pistol and possibley a shotgun in the car)

Even pepper spary can get the cops sued.

So often the cops do rely on their guns as the primary means of enforcement.

	25-12-2002 13:30									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Asher, cops do not have taser guns and such. I'm sure ours don't. I think it is too expensive to have items like that. They have their club, pepper spray, flashlight, and their firarms (pistol and possibley a shotgun in the car) Even pepper spary can get the cops sued. So often the cops do rely on their guns as the primary means of enforcement.

Some cops do carry stuff like tasers but they aren't carried by everyone. You should look inside a cop car sometime. After asking of course.

	25-12-2002 13:33									#35
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Doesn't taser guns have an effective range of less than 4 meters?

I think that if the police has to chase you down, and after being forced to stop you continue to flee on foot the police has a good reason to believe that you have something on your conscience...

Quite frankly, why would you flee the police in the first place if you are innocent of a crime?

	25-12-2002 16:53									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't cops get special training on how to use and fire guns. Aren't they given training on how to AIM at things other than the head and torso regions? You don't die from being shot in the arm or leg, provided you see a doctor sometime within a few days of being shot...

A lot of police agencies use jacketed hollow point rounds, which expand on impact and cause a hell of a lot of damage, so even arm or leg wounds (especially thigh) can be fatal. The reason for usiing these rounds (along with light powder loads) is to avoid stray rounds and penetrators from going downrange and killing someone else.

And no, you don't aim at arms and legs, they move to fast and are very difficult to hit except at such close ranges that the target either (a) can be run down and dealt with other than by shooting, or (b) is a lethal threat if armed.

	25-12-2002 16:56									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Great, yet another reason to say, "Bah, humbug..." G'Night all, I'm going to bed. Screw this story, I'm sure there be plenty more bad news to blacken my mood soon enough...

Most of the world sucks most of the time. You can't dwell on that part.

	25-12-2002 17:03									#38
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The police in this country are trained to shoot to kill. The basic method is to empty their guns into the target, aiming for the center of mass. There is no "winging" someone allowed AFAIK. When they start shooting only the lucky will survive.

	25-12-2002 18:00									#39
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A 12-year-old who stole a car was killed while fleeing?

:shrug: The little bastard deserved it.

	25-12-2002 21:57									#40
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i agree with skanky...i think that if youre 12 years old and stealing cars youre just costing the state money in the future through being imprisoned several times.

	25-12-2002 22:21									#41
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good Job, Police

hehe.

look, the kid was an *******. I don't say that he deserved it, but I don't think that police used excessive force either, I don't even think they made a mistake. The story is very thin on details, but I can presume that they called him to stop, or they'd shoot. He didn't stop. The kid must have been not clean as silk, too, if he actually started a chase with a police car.

Your post on how police car chases should be outlawed is damn silly. If a robbery occurs, and the robbers get away by car, how the **** should police catch them? on bicycles? Or do you say that we don't have to catch them, because they might get hurt.

	25-12-2002 22:23									#42
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I'd say the entire story rests on whether or not he held a weapon. If he held a weapon towards the police at any time, before or after running, he should have been shot. If he had shot at someone prior to the chase, he should have been shot. These are the likely outcomes.

If on the contrary, if this was just some little f*ck stealing Grandma's car for a joyride - I'd rather see him caught on foot, beat up, and cuffed. I know many cops are fat, but surely even they could keep up to a 12 year old.

Another thought comes to mind, what if he's wanted on serious crimes previously, well before the chase. Like a few attempted murders. Sure it's innocent until proven guilty, but at what point do they assess the chances with deadly force?

Last edited by Zylka on 25-12-2002 at 22:30

	25-12-2002 23:43									#43
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Supposedly lots of kids stole cars just for fun. Not me - I was a geek . So I don't think death is a very good punishment. But many kids go for joyrides.

the thing is I doubt he did have a gun. The police should not be shooting non-violent suspects just because they run. Even if they shout Stop!, the kid may not speak English. And most kids are taught to fear the police and stay away from them.

The thing is it is winter, and he surely had on a jacket. He may have reached inside his jacket and this cause the cops to shoot him. But we need more details.

the media only reports it because they are 12 years old. But the cops can't know that immediately. He probably looked like a teenager, and they can be dangerous- even moreso than adults. And with the jacket and probably some kind of ski mask, they may not have known his age.

but I still think it is excessive force. The only way I can see letting the cops off is if the kid reached inside his jacket (I'm certain the kid had no real weapon).

	26-12-2002 01:05									#44
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dissident

	26-12-2002 01:27									#45
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In short, we don't have enough details. Lots ( ) of kids go on joyrides, but not as many get into a highspeed chase, anyway, so I think we can agree that he was a complete *******.