29-12-2002 19:04									#31
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As you say, the figure of Christ on the cross cant be anything other than a graven image...

ouch for christians vs Commandment 2

	29-12-2002 20:06									#32
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quote: Urban Ranger: If so, aren't lots and lots of Christians are breaking the Ten Commandments?

Christians do not live to the ten commandments but to the commandment of love, given by Jesus.

	29-12-2002 20:16									#33
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Catholics certainly believe in the ten commandments unless I've been mishearing all the films where they say they've broken such and such since their last confession.

Christians who believe in God and Jesus must therefore believe in the fact that the God who gave us Jesus was the God of the old testament right? That God was somewhat wrathful and prone to a bit of smiting which changed to a more peace loving version after Jesus came on the scene. My problem with Christians ignoring the ten commandments is that God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, etc.. and infallible. This would mean that God can't be wrong and what he says must therefore be true and be true for all time.

Therefore, christians must accept that what he said at the beginning of the Old Testament must still be true if you have faith in him. Therefore, all the ten commandments must therefore still apply surely? Belief would say that all God's statements have the power of law as soon as he says them and they are always right. Surely you can't pick and choose which bits are right & wrong now or even which bits to accept and which to dump??

In a slight aside, I must say I always prefered the smiting version of God when I was a kid, much more interesting than the carey lovey-dovey version.

* Demerzel so going to hell, if I'm wrong

( but then again I'll meet all the christians who broke commandment #2 there who told me that I wouldn't be going to heaven because I didn't believe but they would. how's that for irony? )

	30-12-2002 02:21									#34
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quote: Catholics certainly believe in the ten commandments

believe in the 10 commandments?
How do you believe in them?
I believe in them as well, God gave them.
they're good and rightious, but christians are 'death' to them and do not live according to them.

the 10 commandments are there for the 'old man' not for the 'new man'.

thus I do not say that the 10 commandments are no good, but they're not applicable to christians anymore.

Like children should not cross the road while adults are able to. The 'children should not cross the road' rule is not bad, it's actually a pretty good rule.
But it's pretty silly if an adult still doesn't cross the road.

quote: My problem with Christians ignoring the ten commandments is that God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, etc.. and infallible. This would mean that God can't be wrong and what he says must therefore be true and be true for all time.

It doesn't contradict! It is true, as long as you're not reborn, you will be judged on the 10 commandments.

you can read about that in acts 15, romand 6,7 galatians, hebrews and all over the new testament, but those books are most clear on it.

	30-12-2002 03:19									#35
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I don't consider myself a christian, because the christian world tends to be more of a clan, and when you are a part of a clan, you are a part of the rules of that clan, and that is what stuffed up christianity, it has been like that ever since it was created.

When Jesus was human, there was no such clan, there were only individuals who thought/knew Jesus was right and good.

The more humble you are, the closer you are to being a person like Jesus was (as a human). If you try to understand the bible and/or God, you will probably just make things more complicated for yourself. As a human, you wouldn't understand an infinity of what reality is, therefore, sit down, don't say you know what you're talking about, be humble with the world around you, and trust in God to handle your life. Putting your life in God's hand, does not mean, go to church, read the bible, condemn people, argue with people about the bible, etc, it just means, that you will continue your life being content, and stronger, because weaknesses (mostly forms of pleasure), don't hurt you as much as it would without God, because you have more sense of direction. I haven't been angry, frustrated, sad, for about 2 years now; like an old person, finally realising what life is about.

How emotional were people before Television/media? I'm guessing not that much at all. Don't let the media teach you what it wants you to think; look at nature, and let it teach you, it is a far better teacher than a human teacher.

	30-12-2002 17:30									#36
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"The more humble you are, the closer you are to being a person like Jesus was (as a human)."

Agreed, sn00py.

"If you try to understand the bible and/or God, you will probably just make things more complicated for yourself."

Here I must disagree.

Jesus convicted the Pharisees for their lack of scriptural knowledge. Even as they preached the ten commandments, they did not understand some of the basic capacities of God. Their lack of spiritual growth hindered the Jewish people, encouraging some to go astray. Therefore, all Christians are exhorted to bible study in order to grow spiritually and obtain greater understanding of God.

The neat thing about the bible is that God provides greater insight from thorough study. What once appeared unclear or uncertain, sometimes becomes clear over time.

"Putting your life in God's hand, does not mean, go to church, read the bible, condemn people, argue with people about the bible, "

Again I disagree. What does it mean to put your life in God's hands? It means being willing to obey God in whatever manner he directs your life. If he asks you to leave your job and follow Him, then you are to follow. Not all Christians will be called to the same function, in fact, there are many different ways in which Christians can serve God.

Going to church serves a number of different functions such as encouraging fellowship between believers, worship to God and confession of sins over the previous week. Christians are strengthened by attendence, although it is not mandatory to attend every week. To force attendence is to violate the spirit of the congregation, in that all are welcome yet none are to be forced.

Church, like bible reading or any of the 'works' are to be done with a cheerful spirit. They are nothing in themselves, if not done as an expression of love for God. If you truly love someone, will you not express your love?

As for arguing about the Bible, how is this equated to condemnation? Many honest Christians, and non-Christians have thankfully asked questions about the bible to gain greater understanding. All those who ask, I will try to provide adequate answers to their questions so that by hearing they might understand.

	31-12-2002 02:26									#37
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You've misunderstood me, but I didn't explain myself well obiwan18, sorry; when I said this: "Putting your life in God's hand, does not mean, go to church, read the bible, condemn people, argue with people about the bible".

What I should have added is that God will tell you what you should do. So what I was saying is that if God doesnt want you to go to church, then there is a reason for that and you don't know what it is yet, but will soon understand further down in life.

And when I said: "If you try to understand the bible and/or God, you will probably just make things more complicated for yourself."

I meant that if you read the bible with a closed mind/heart, that you will only frustrate yourself, and that things won't make sense.

	31-12-2002 15:53									#38
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God created the dinosaurs to get rid of the previous attempt making his own image (an older version of the human). When he saw, that they weren't good, he created the dinos.

I'll just have to wonder what are those giant lizards we've seen here in finland lately...

	31-12-2002 15:55									#39
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy quote: Urban Ranger: If so, aren't lots and lots of Christians are breaking the Ten Commandments? Christians do not live to the ten commandments but to the commandment of love, given by Jesus.

They don't? Then why did Jesus said he had come to uphold the Jewish laws?

	31-12-2002 16:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo God created the dinosaurs to get rid of the previous attempt making his own image (an older version of the human). When he saw, that they weren't good, he created the dinos. I'll just have to wonder what are those giant lizards we've seen here in finland lately...

Very funny, that's the way tzhe Aztecs explained dinosaur bones they had found. In their cosmology, we're living in the "fifth sun", meaning that there were 4 creations of humanity before. The first human race were the giants who were killed by giant Jaguars...

	31-12-2002 16:20									#41
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Wow... I have the imagination of ancient aztecs...

	31-12-2002 17:46									#42
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quote: They don't? Then why did Jesus said he had come to uphold the Jewish laws?

I uphold is as well.
let me explain it, though it's a hard topic (christians have argued about it for centuries and still do)

When we will die, God will judge us.
He will do that be comparing our life to the (jewish) law. (the 10 commandments are a part of this law that can be found in it's entirely in the old testament)

But everybody who admits that (s)he cannot keep this law (and is guilty for that reason) and accepts Jesus to have been punished instead of himself, will 'die' with Jesus at that very moment.

Thus for a christian the 'judgement' happens on that moment. He is judged, pleads guilty, the punishment is spoken, but instead of him, Jesus is punished.

After that the new life starts. This is the life after the judgement, and thus the jewish law is not applicable to that anymore. Now there's a new life in which we shall live through love and faith.

Of course the 'jewish law' is still valid and rightious, for those who weren't judged yet. It will be uphelt untill Jesus comes back, and all who haven't been judged yet will be judged.

	31-12-2002 17:59									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Demerzel, I am wondering, is a cross a "graven image?" After all, they are supposed to be copies of the "One True Cross." If so, aren't lots and lots of Christians are breaking the Ten Commandments?

The practice of graven images of various christian religous figures (such as Jesus on the cross, saints etc) is a result of the Romanisation of the Christian religion.

The Romans had a penchant for making statues of their gods, emperors so on and so forth, and so they carried on the tradition when they became christians not realising that it was supposed to be sacriligous.