28-12-2002 10:50									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I stick with my earlier statement. After playing a builder all game you are not going to wipe out Japan *and* Mongolia before military tradition. So wipe out the Mongols with riders and the Japanese with cavalry.

	28-12-2002 18:28									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Dominae - I can't really delay without either crippling my treasury or starving my citizens. I could trade for Theology and steal the Sistine immediately, but it will take my entire (upgrade) treasury plus all my Per Turn income. I've reduced research so that I'm at 20-30% research and 10% luxury, making Invention complete 1 turn before my (ex-FP) Palace prebuild in Tsingtao.
I'm being badly outpaced right now, so if I slow down much more I won't have much of a chance with my Riders, I don't think.

MB - As above, I've been building my treasury somewhat, am 90% sure I'll get Leo's, and have beefed up my defenses considerably. Now, do I build more Horses or hold off and build Riders in 20-30 turns once I get Chivalry? I just don't know how much they cost to upgrade.

I have:
10 Horsemen, 5 Archers, 11 Spearmen, 2 Swordsmen, 5 Pikemen, 3 Catapults, 2 Med. Inf.
I've come from having a "Weak compared to them" to "Average" according to my advisors.

Ningpo is where Theseus said to put an outpost, I decided to hope for an invasion base instead.

Other Civs have Chivalry and Theology, though I've been trying to keep Japan poor by selling him my map occasionally, lol, so he has neither, yet. I've sold Furs to Mongols, so hopefully I can keep him happy with me.

Attachment: 470ad.jpg
This has been downloaded 94 time(s).

	28-12-2002 19:01									#33
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Chinan of course

	28-12-2002 21:03									#34
	Tired of ads?

It costs 80 gold to upgrade horsemen to Riders. Of course, if you can get Leo's it's only 40 gold per upgrade. It's still pretty expensive...

If you attack, I would watch especially Tienstein and Anyang, as their Samurais can reach them in 1 turn. They are therefore the cities the AI will attack first.

Good luck!!

--Kon--

	28-12-2002 21:31									#35
	Put an end to popups!

Tienstien already has a wall and if I get SunTzu's by way of bad luck, I'll switch Anyang to either a wall or another pike.
Both are on hills, IIRC.
I'm more worried about Chinan, Hangchow and Ningpo, since my defenses are weakest there - spears, archers, and horses, IIRC, though I've almost got pikes stationed there.

Looking at Japan, I think they must have gotten the Great Wall, as there's a lot of walls around their towns. Argh.



DaveMcW - I didn't purposely play builder-style. I wanted war, I was just too far away. I guess I could start a war before Chivalry and just go wreak havoc on his Iron, roads, and irrigations.

	29-12-2002 00:24									#36
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Some suggestions based on your screenshot (I still have no access to Civ3):

1. All productive cities should be building Horsemen at this point. Barracks are fine (but aren't you building Sun Tzu's?); Universities and Wealth(?) are not. Pikemen and Catapults are ok too, but you really want more Horsemen than anything else.

2. Wonder pre-builds are great, but there are times when "losing" the productivity of two major cities really hurts: this is one of them. This is certainly the voice of the Dark Side, but imagine how many extra Horsemen you would have if you had not started the Palace (and how much more useful those Horsemen would be at this point).

3. Are enemy Galleys buzzing around your coast? If not (or not much), take all your defenders out of your Northern cities and move them to the front. You're going to need them.

4. Ah, the lure of The Republic! Now you're tasting the economy of a representative government, but sooner of later you're going to have to switch to Monarchy. Your enemies are too big for you to conquer without dealing with WW. Many people still knock Monarchy for non-Religious civs, which I simply do not understand. It seems the right choice to me here.

5. Start concentrating on money. I recommend getting Invention then turning your Science to zero. Riders are your only strategy now, so prepare accordingly.


Anyway, that's what I would do at this point; there are surely other commendable courses of action. Please post your results, good or bad.


Dominae

	29-12-2002 01:10									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Some suggestions based on your screenshot (I still have no access to Civ3): 1. All productive cities should be building Horsemen at this point. Barracks are fine (but aren't you building Sun Tzu's?); Universities and Wealth(?) are not. Pikemen and Catapults are ok too, but you really want more Horsemen than anything else.

See # 5. I don't even have half the cash to upgrade my existing 10 horses.

quote: 2. Wonder pre-builds are great, but there are times when "losing" the productivity of two major cities really hurts: this is one of them. This is certainly the voice of the Dark Side, but imagine how many extra Horsemen you would have if you had not started the Palace (and how much more useful those Horsemen would be at this point).

I really thought I'd get the Library - that's where SunTzu's came from.
The Palace was an FP, but I was convinced to put it elsewhere. Now it's scheduled to finish 1 turn after Invention, hopefully locking up Leo's for me.

quote: 3. Are enemy Galleys buzzing around your coast? If not (or not much), take all your defenders out of your Northern cities and move them to the front. You're going to need them.

I see the value, I'm just incapable of doing that. Edit: I've already stripped my 2 defender towns to 1. That's as far as I can go with just 1 layer of cities.

quote: 4. Ah, the lure of The Republic! Now you're tasting the economy of a representative government, but sooner of later you're going to have to switch to Monarchy. Your enemies are too big for you to conquer without dealing with WW. Many people still knock Monarchy for non-Religious civs, which I simply do not understand. It seems the right choice to me here.

I thought the extra productivity would get me into the tech race. I wish I'd gone Monarchy now.

quote: 5. Start concentrating on money. I recommend getting Invention then turning your Science to zero. Riders are your only strategy now, so prepare accordingly.

See #1. I could have had Invention in half the time, but I'm coinciding it with my Palace build to steal Leo's, I hope. After that, yes, I'll buy Chivalry and kill, kill, kill!

quote: Anyway, that's what I would do at this point; there are surely other commendable courses of action. Please post your results, good or bad. Dominae

I'll keep you posted. I'll give another SAV right before the war, for those that want to try taking on Mongolia first.

	29-12-2002 01:50									#38
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by ducki See # 5. I don't even have half the cash to upgrade my existing 10 horses.

In my experience, Wealth is (almost) never the answer.


Dominae

	29-12-2002 02:17									#39
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ducki:

You are right about the horseman, you will not have enough ready cash to upgrade them unless you set science to zero. I would focus on Midevial Infantry and Pikemen combos until you get riders on line, and make sure you use the terrain to your advantage, no crossing in valleys, across plains ect. Set one city to produce Pikes and another to produce MEI's. Perhaps a third city should pop out an archer or catapult every now and then. Use the available horsemen for counterattacks until you have the cash for upgrades, upgrade the wounded first. For the rest follow Arrian's advice.

I went the route of Sistines, I got the wonder but it did little for me, I should have stuck with Sun Tzu's.

Edit:
A couple of comments;

1. you can get at least 3 additional cities out of your territory, I suggest you do so, in fact you may want to consider an ICS build layout.
2. You need to maximize production! You have several flood plain tiles in you cities so mine all of the plain tiles in those cities, and why is that cow sw of beijing irrigated? it should be mined. Also you have several forest tiles, use them to produce improvements in a few turns. (especially the furs, they can be deforested, then mined and you will not lose a single shield or food)

Last edited by Mad Bomber on 29-12-2002 at 02:26

	29-12-2002 21:18									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber 1. you can get at least 3 additional cities out of your territory, I suggest you do so, in fact you may want to consider an ICS build layout.

I'm already uncomfortable with the number of shared tiles I have in places, but recognize it as a necessary "evil". Bear in mind I'm still a builder and city-placement perfectionist at heart. These overlapped cities are a huge step for me. I surely can't do ICS - yet.

quote: 2. You need to maximize production! You have several flood plain tiles in you cities so mine all of the plain tiles in those cities, and why is that cow sw of beijing irrigated? it should be mined. Also you have several forest tiles, use them to produce improvements in a few turns. (especially the furs, they can be deforested, then mined and you will not lose a single shield or food)

Right now I'm maximizing Gold. I had to buy Chivalry because Japan finally got it, but I waited long enough that it was only ~300 gold, leaving me enough money to upgrade about 2/3 of my horses off the bat.
I've got several catapults, a few Archers a handful of MedInf, a couple of "extra" pikes, 8 or so Riders, another 6 or 8 horses, 2 workers and 1 settler for my Invasion Force.

Anyway, if I'd maximized Production over Gold, I might have gotten the Library, but I really needed the money for my Riders. Now that I've done a round of upgrades, I can switch to shields asap. The Cow was a Despotism leftover, but until I get a worker back up there, I'm stuck with it, otherwise, I'll have starvations. For now, most of my workers are ensuring I have roads everywhere along my Japanese borders.

I just declared war, but here's the save right before I bought Chivalry for anyone that wants to try taking the Mongols instead. Japan just got Chivalry, doesn't have money for upgrades, has 3 connected Irons, and should be semi-easy until they get some Samurai in the field. By then, I hope to have taken Nagoya, Kagoshima, and Izumo. Kagoshima simply because I don't want Temujin to get it if he joins in.

I bought Chivalry and upgraded on this turn.
Next turn, I declared war and moved to take Nagoya while moving some Archers to my back flanks due to a pair of Japanese Galleys on my NW shoreline. Gah!

	30-12-2002 19:41									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by ducki I have: 10 Horsemen, 5 Archers, 11 Spearmen, 2 Swordsmen, 5 Pikemen, 3 Catapults, 2 Med. Inf.

Well, I was able to upgrade 7 or 8 of my horses at the start of the war, due to some serious tile micromanagement as well as selling my world map every few turns for as little as 1gold - every little bit I could get, every time I could get it. I still ended the war with only about a dozen Riders.

I made a pretty big mistake, IMO, with how I waged the war.

I wanted to take cities as fast as possible, and since Nagoya was within striking distance of Tatung and Tientsin, where most of my Riders were, I attacked with 1 at a time until Nagoya fell, then sent in a Pike.

Then I sent a couple of MedInf and a pair of Riders to Izumo as well as a small detachment to Kagoshima. My full strength Nagoya Riders headed for the Iron near Nagasaki. Kagoshima took 4 turns to take, as I had a staggered arrival of Riders, Izumo took 2 turns but left me badly wounded. I shuffled some Pikes around to get one from Tientsin to Izumo asap.

The plan was to use the minimum number of units to do the maximum amount of damage, but with 3 movement, what I should have done is concentrate on either Kagoshima or Izumo after Nagoya, not both.
Since Japan had 3 connected Iron, I should not have tried to cut just 1. I lost 2 riders and an Elite Med Inf and an Elite Sword on that ill-conceived mission.

When you have a mobility advantage, you don't need to separate your forces to strike in as many different places at once, as you can outrun the enemy to your next target.

Had I sued for peace as soon as Japan was ready to give me Theology along with it, I could have saved half a dozen units, including 3 Elites, and I could have used the majority of my GA on infrastructure instead of Riders and Pikes.

No leaders, low casualties, I call it mostly successful. The FP is almost done, and I'm 11 turns away from Leo's. If I get both Leo's and can deny either Japan or Mongolia Saltpeter, I believe I've won.

Here's the latest screen.

	30-12-2002 20:23									#42
	Support Apolyton

That looks good Ducki!

That was a pretty small army that you kept on-hand, especially with the Chinese. It was good to see that a small mobile force is sufficient for hit-and-run tactics, and for grabbing just enough territory to get your two productive cores. You've got it locked up now?? Good job.

	30-12-2002 20:38									#43
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I wouldn't quite say "locked up", but if I get Leo's I'm pretty sure I can take my whole continent, which should leave me sitting pretty for the rest of the game with a bit of work. I've got tech parity, now I just need a lead.

Unfortunately, Japan and Mongolia both have Saltpeter, but once my FP goes up, I should be able to seriously outproduce everyone else.

	30-12-2002 20:41									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ducki... THIS IS IMPORTANT!

Japan and the Mongols need to be at war! Were you able to negotiate an alliance against Japan? If not, you need to go to war against the Mongols and bring Japan into it.

	30-12-2002 21:24									#45
	Got spare money?

Mongolia was too expensive.

I have seen Mongol Horsemen, instead of Keshiks, though, so they are next on the chopping block.

I got Leo's, btw, so my cash troubles are greatly lessened.

	31-12-2002 03:38									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK, here's my plan.

Wait 3 turns for my Incense deal with Mongolia to expire.
The Town just west of Chinan has Mongolia's source of Saltpeter.
I'm 4 turns from Chemistry, so I can get Cannon pretty soon.

Continue with my current improvement builds in both Cores. Then, switch to Muskets, Riders, and Catapults.
Move all available forces to bear on the town West of Chinan, removing Gunpowder from Mongolia.
Take the Town just North of that.
Possibly take the City West of Kagoshima, depending on strength.

Make peace ASAP after taking at least those two northern towns.
By now, I should have at LEAST cannon, maybe Cavalry.
Declare war on Japan, upgrade to Cannon and Cavalry, bribe Temujin to join in, and kick some butt.
If possible, I may try to use Peace Negotiations to get Tem to join in.

Either way, once I take the Saltpeter, Mongolia should be an easy foe, but I'll still need him to draw some fire from Japan.

If things go well, I may not play this game to the end. I find I don't really like China - go figure, since I'm such a rabid fan of Industrious - I just really seem to prefer Japan for Militaristic, or Celts.

Anyway, If anyone sees a problem with that battle plan, let me know. More later, I hope.

	31-12-2002 04:06									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

How many catapults do you have to upgrade?? Bringing them along for your strike on the Mongols will slow down your attack, and you might not need them, especially with your limited goals.
It would also allow you the time to set them up on the Japanese border. That way you won't have to wait a few turns to shift the cannons around.

quote: If things go well, I may not play this game to the end. I find I don't really like China - go figure, since I'm such a rabid fan of Industrious - I just really seem to prefer Japan for Militaristic, or Celts.

I'm yet to play the Celts, mostly because I believe that I'd prefer the Samurai to the Gallic. What do you think??

Also, if you are not enjoying the game, don't worry about finishing it. Everyone has their style. I kind of like China and I make sure that I have dozens of Horseman on hand to upgrade to Riders. I don't think that I would enjoy China as much if I didn't tie this in to my strategy. What makes you prefer Japan to China??

	31-12-2002 04:21									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by BRC How many catapults do you have to upgrade?? Bringing them along for your strike on the Mongols will slow down your attack, and you might not need them, especially with your limited goals. It would also allow you the time to set them up on the Japanese border. That way you won't have to wait a few turns to shift the cannons around.

I haven't decided whether to bring them or not.
Depends on how close I am to Metallurgy, really.
Since I have Sun Tzu's, I can upgrade in any captured town.

I also thought of having two detachments against Mongolia - one of Riders for the first strike, and one of Muskets and Catapults, getting in position for the second strike, or perhaps on the third(the bigger City).

I'll have to see. I think I have half a dozen or so right now, but I'll be making more to upgrade since I also have Leo's and am heading for Mil.Trad.

quote: I'm yet to play the Celts, mostly because I believe that I'd prefer the Samurai to the Gallic. What do you think??

Gallic Swords are an interesting UU. They are rather expensive, making mass Warrior upgrades difficult due to cash, but they are extremely powerful, as they are as strong as Swordsmen, yet will retreat, giving them, IMO, a ranking somewhere between Swordsman and Knight. Very strong, and if you have a good, productive empire, using a handful to start your GA so you can make gobs more of them works well. Also, even if you are making them on the far side of your empire, the 2-move on your military road network gets them to the frontline pronto.

Give 'em a shot, but don't expect to do a massive warrior-upgrade - you simply cannot accumulate enough cash. Another option is to wait until you have Monarchy or Republic to use them - with mobility, starting your conquests a bit later won't hurt that bad and I abhor a despotic GA.

quote: Also, if you are not enjoying the game, don't worry about finishing it. Everyone has their style. I kind of like China and I make sure that I have dozens of Horseman on hand to upgrade to Riders. I don't think that I would enjoy China as much if I didn't tie this in to my strategy. What makes you prefer Japan to China??

As much as I love industrious, I figured I should try China again, at least long enough to see the UU this time. Granted, I haven't utilized it very well, but I just don't like it as much as Samurai or Gallic Swords or even Numidian Mercs.

I admit I didn't do a great job preparing for the Riders, but I almost always fight my wars with a much smaller force than I should. I also tend to split my force in two fairly often.

The thing that really drove it home for me was losing the culture-border to Japan on my desert cities that really needed a couple of green tiles. Religious simply trumped Industrious this time.

I like culture, I can't stand to build ICS, I hate having Cities without Temples, Libraries, Cathedrals, Universities, Marketplaces - basically, I want everything in every city.

Which is why I'm struggling with this warmonger Darkside thing. I just don't know what the heck I'm doing.

Maybe I should try Azteca and just throw the agression flag as soon as I find a victim and keep on eating the hearts of my foes until I realize the power of the dark side.

Another thing that may have turned me off this one is that it's at Monarch level and I still struggle there.

	31-12-2002 04:31									#49
	Tired of ads?

ducki, i can really recommend trying China on a 80% water map...simple strategy: don't expand too much, build barracks, archers first...take over a neighbour...build some improvements (libraries), then swordsmen and so on. You'll see how powerfull the combination of industrious and militaristic is. On such maps you don't need a UU to be dominant.

	31-12-2002 04:49									#50
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Mazarin - I think part of the problem on this map was the sheer distance from my starting point to either of my neighbors - being new to the dark side, the distance was just too daunting, especially for an early offensive.
By the time my military had caught up with my expansion, it was Rider-time.


And BRC - one of the reasons I played this one out is, when I learned I was alone with Mongolia and Japan, I was originally upset that I didn't have India for a punching-bag. Then I thought, how silly, surely I can go head to head with another pair of Military civs. Which I've done, just not terribly well. I was determined to see the Age of the Rider this time, though, and for a "builder", I haven't done too bad.
For a bloodthirsty barbarian, I failed.
I know I can win, I just want to see Riders vs. Gunpowder, then I'm probably done.


Thanks to everyone who offered advice and encouragement. Monarch + AU:PtW mod is much harder than expected. I'm still not ahead in tech and I'm not even sure I'll get Chemistry first. Bleh.

	31-12-2002 04:52									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Having trouble getting the hang of being a bloodthirsty warmonger? Force yourself to the Dark Side (pardon the pun): select a Militaristic/Expansionist civ. You'll find that all your Builder plans very difficult to execute, making conquering other civs the only attractive option. I suggest Vikings for a first attempt, then Zulus for the ultimate Dark Side experience.


Dominae

	31-12-2002 04:57									#52
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Tried Vikings and gave up before Invention.

I'm thinking Aztecs and following Vel's recipe here - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=52270

Just to get the hang of it.

	31-12-2002 04:57									#53
	Remove this text

Ducki:

Good job with the war with Japan. Much better than my plays, I was able to capture Nagoya and Nagasaki, but the Japanese conqured mongolia after my invasion force was spent.

As for the build, remember that a shared tile is much less of a problem than an unused tile, which you have several. A small city is better than 4 unused tiles.

Still, you are doing good, the FP belonged nearer to the border, I was too focused on the future palace sight. Your play changing the former FP site to a palace prebuild was astute (why didn't I think of that!!!).

best of luck in the game, keep us posted on its conclusion.

	31-12-2002 06:10									#54
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: I like culture, I can't stand to build ICS, I hate having Cities without Temples, Libraries, Cathedrals, Universities, Marketplaces - basically, I want everything in every city.

My problems too, although I am coming around. I'm learning when the time to build is. The ICS thing may take a long time for me to get used to.

quote: Maybe I should try Azteca and just throw the agression flag as soon as I find a victim and keep on eating the hearts of my foes until I realize the power of the dark side.

I find that the most efficient approach to the game lies in being totally committed to either the "Light" or the "Dark" side. However, neither approach will leave you as powerful at the end. The Gray area takes time to master, but I think that its a lot more versatile.

quote: And BRC - one of the reasons I played this one out is, when I learned I was alone with Mongolia and Japan, I was originally upset that I didn't have India for a punching-bag. Then I thought, how silly, surely I can go head to head with another pair of Military civs. Which I've done, just not terribly well. I was determined to see the Age of the Rider this time, though, and for a "builder", I haven't done too bad.

I love starting next to India.

When surrounded by a couple of militaristic civs, I try to make quick strikes and peace after 5-10 turns. Oscillate and STICK to the high ground. After a few of these short wars, you have taken/razed a few cities and their production base has shrunk. I find pillaging to be especially effective. Grab any workers that you can on the initial declaration of war, and definately grab them in the peace treaty. I would even take workers over techs in some cases. The key is to keep them from gaining a production advantage. This method allows you to keep them in check and move on to do a similiar thing to another neighbor. As you production base grows, and theirs stagnates, you will be able to beat them with superior numbers or superior technology. It is your choice. This is pretty effective as long as you keep a fairly powerful military on your side. Horseman are great as they oscillate quickly.

	31-12-2002 06:22									#55
	Increase the size of your Attachments

ducki, two comments...

1) The reason I was so emphatic about war between Japan and the Mongols was less about going after the Mongols (i.e., suckers), and more about a) burning both of their GAs, and b) further damaging Japan... in my mind you didn't harm Toku-baby enough in your first go-around.

2) Just once, do me a favor, don;t play Gray, don;t even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! You've got Riders? What are you attacking with? 20-30? Maybe split into two strike forces? Screw that... DOUBLE IT! TRIPLE IT!! Go to total warfare production for a while... you can indulge your Builder needs while the battles are taking place in far off enemy lands. Prolly over the weekend I'll start posting my AU 202 AAR; given the very difficult situation, I had over 50 Horsemen / Keshiks / Cavs running around in oscillating wars. Put it this way: You know you've learned the joy of warmongering when you feel INVINCIBLE.

	31-12-2002 07:22									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Do Theseus' posts scare anybody else??



There is wisdom in his words though. Riders could be the most powerful UU. It is true that one extra Library may help you more than one extra Rider, but an additional 4 Riders can be used to extort the tech that you would research. Theseus, can you post a screenshot or save so that I can get an idea of your city-spacing, preferably around your starting city. Thank you.

	31-12-2002 08:29									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey, I don;t play that way all the time, but sometimes you gotta be The Beast!

I can't do screenshots tonight, but over the weekend I'll try to find a good save with my representative spacing (actually, AU 202 is not bad). In general, I do 3-tile spacing (meaning 2 between towns / cities), as adjusted for terrain.

Your clarification, however, is very interesting... after a year, I still haven;t decided on spacing around the capitol, nor do I remember having seen any serious discussion of the topic.

	31-12-2002 09:40									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Theseus ducki, two comments... 1) The reason I was so emphatic about war between Japan and the Mongols was less about going after the Mongols (i.e., suckers), and more about a) burning both of their GAs, and b) further damaging Japan... in my mind you didn't harm Toku-baby enough in your first go-around.

I hadn't thought of the GA thing, but I didwant to get them fighting each other (again - they had a brief war early on) just to mess with their economies. Japan spent their GA I know, because I lost at least 1 Samurai battle.
I agree about not damaging Tokie enough, but when you start a war with such a small force (about 8 riders, 2 Med.Inf., 1 Sword), then 3 cities, 1 tech, 100gold and a GA that nets you your FP and a Wonder is ok with me. Maybe my sights are too low.

quote: 2) Just once, do me a favor, don;t play Gray, don;t even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!!

That's just it - I don't know how to do that. My builderly tendencies always get in the way because I don't know how to not build improvements - and it's not necessarily culture, but the needed happiness stuff (temples, marketplaces) and future tech needs(libraries) that always ensure my army is just big enough to take about 3 cities, 5 if the RNG is very kind. At least for the first 2 ages.

quote: You've got Riders? What are you attacking with? 20-30? Maybe split into two strike forces?

In this case, try about 8 Riders, initially in 2 forces, then 3 once the first town fell.

quote: Screw that... DOUBLE IT! TRIPLE IT!! Go to total warfare production for a while... you can indulge your Builder needs while the battles are taking place in far off enemy lands.

I try. I really do. But deep down, I want my people to be happy, or at least not openly unhappy.

I guess my problem is, I'm too benevolent.
Maybe I just haven't learned how to wait for happiness and culture.
I want it and I want it now, dammit!


Anyway, I think my next game will be Aztecs, or maybe Germany - at least with Germany, I have an excuse for waiting a while to build temples, as I will start with two military techs, but with the Aztec, maybe I can get momentum on my side early and stick with it.

I dunno.
This warmongering is much tougher than expected.
That's what I get for starting out with Egypt as my favorite.

quote: In general, I do 3-tile spacing (meaning 2 between towns / cities),

/shudder
I hate going 4-tile spacing(3 between) because I like, at least my core, to get big and get big asap.
I'm gonna have to work really hard at this Uncultured Ancient War Machine thing.

	31-12-2002 21:17									#59
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm with Theseus on this one: to really be an effective player (that is, to be comfortable somewhere in the 'Gray Zone'), you have to have tasted both the Light Side and the Dark Side in their purest forms.

An early AU scenario ('Give peace a chance' was it?) dictated that no military units could be built during the whole game, which is the purest form of Light Side gameplay (OCC is a close second).

What is a "pure" form of the Dark Side? Well, to be an effective warmonger you do need some improvements; Archer-Archer-Archer...ad infinitum will not work (phew! Civ3 would be boring if it did!). My suggestion is as before: select the worst Builder civs, the Militaristic/Expansionist ones, and make sure you're in a perpetual state of war with at least one civ that you share borders with (this is most easily done on Pangea maps). If you really try to win with such a setup, you'll find the best way to win is to embrace the Dark Side.

By knowing the strengths and weaknesses of various strategies firsthand (not to mention when to employ them), you'll become a better player overall. A great example that comes to mind is Aeson's SVC game: he played an almost pure-builder approach (save for a few conquests with Immortals) for most of the game, then ended it with a gajillion MAs. You could say that the difficulty of the map and the fact that he was playing Deity forced him into that pattern (build first, conquer last), but the skill at which he executed the various stages is evidence of his knowledge of both the Dark Side and the Light Side.

[Aeson, if you're reading this, sorry to put you on the spot and embarass you by giving a lot more praise that you think you deserve...but you have to admit, SVC was a very impressive game!]

So, to make a long story short: embrace the Dark Side. Fully. Don't worry, you'll come back, and stronger than before!


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 31-12-2002 at 22:02

	31-12-2002 21:30									#60
	Re: Help on Monarch - FP + Victim selection Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Looking at the map, I'd say that Hangcrow is the best site for the Forbiden Palace. This city will need to finish it's Court House first, along with a Market Place with sufficent luxary access to trigue a WLTPD.

Japan is not a good nation to attack with Riders because they'll have Samuri. Mongolia isn't particulary good either. You will need sufficent Riders to discourage them from thinking about attacking you.

If the AI is outresearching you, turn off reserach for now, hire one scientist and start buying techs as cheaply as possible in gold per turn deals.

Invest the money you save into rushing court houses everywhere and rushing pre-builds to the FP.

Once the FP completes (in a good location like Hangcrow), you should be able to outreserach the AI easily.

Current FP build location though is in a bad spot because much of your empire would have similar CN relative to both P and FP location. (Especally the SW portion)

With the FP at Hangcrow, your empire is roughly evenly split, with any cities you later capture in Mongolia & Japan easily workable with Court Houses.

quote: Originally posted by ducki Ok, I think my current FP build is a good spot for when I move my palace. I'm China, and I have Japan and Mongolia on my landmass... ...who do I attack once I get Riders? Mongolia has lots of mountains on the borders, so the Keshiks will have speed, but Samurai are strong on defense. Everyone is even with or ahead of me. What to do, what to do?