31-12-2002 07:19									#61
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NYE: Done.

Too tired right now to fuly discuss the other proposal, Sorry Arrian. I'll check it tomorrow.

DeepO

	31-12-2002 11:58									#62
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I have to disagree with alexman's plan.

In the South, only city 6 can use wheat prior to a temple plus 10 in city 4, 5 or 6 (really only 4 or 6 to close all the space).

DeepO's plan has 5 cities in the space of the 4. The strength of DeepO's, as far as I can see, is that city 3 can stay or go. If it stays, it becomes the focus of the South. If it goes after building many settlers, it leaves all 4 cities in essentially the same shape as alexman has them. Only alexman gives us one settler pump, while DeepO potentially gives us 3.

These are thoughts off the top of my head.

	31-12-2002 16:32									#63
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Arrian, I know you're going for a coastal wondercity, but if you for a moment forget about that goal, and merely focus on a powerhouse, which would then be the best site: Your #4, or my #3? I don't think there will be much difference, so my plan becomes superiour because it has an extra city, and thus the extra commerce. The same for #5: It ws deliberately placed on that far edge of the country because it is the only tile that can access all that sea, while at first keep some landtiles (when the neighbours haven't grown yet) so there is some production to build it up, after which it can become a sleeping gold city. That's exactly its strength, so certainly we'll need it.

I would fully agree with you, if this was a normal game in which cities grow beyond size 12, and so the compromise of keeping #3 as an intermediate city for the moment, a settler pump and not a cultural hog, is fine by me. Also, if it would become a wonder city, there is no real reason to disband it after use: we can starve it later, and keep it around as a size 3 or 4 city with a wonder in it. But there is no real reason for that, there is room enough (I think )

DeepO

	31-12-2002 18:53									#64
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Hmm. *grumbles* Well, I guess. But it looks wrong.

-Arrian

	31-12-2002 22:06									#65
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One more thing to consider about cramped city spacing, however:

Each city requires 30 shields and 2 pop points to build. Is the extra commerce/shield output from say... your proposed city #3 going to make up for the cost of building the settler and the increased corruption (# of cities), and if so, how long will it take to recoup that opportunity cost? Without going overboard on testing, there isn't really any way to know for sure, I guess, but my gut is telling me that city #3 in your proposal isn't worth it.

I want to get the best land settled & utilized quickly so that we can get to work on other priorities (such as dealing with our newfound neighbors). Building lots of cramped cities leaves us in expansion mode longer than I'd like.

-Arrian

	31-12-2002 22:48									#66
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As a side note I think we should hammer out these two proposals and have a vote on them in the next 5 or so turns.

Right now I like the idea behind DeepO's (although I wouldn't be opposed to 1 or 2 minor moves. I don't have the same grasp on corruption as some of you so I'm not sure of #3's impact on it (besides the simple +1 city), by my intuition certainly is that it's worth it (albeit it is far from aesthetically pleasing to my eye).

	31-12-2002 22:55									#67
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Well, now that we have neighbors, I vote for DeepO's proposal too. My more relaxed spacing was more suited for peaceful expansion, but it's not as good for war (because the extra city would go north instead of at the #3 spot).

Random comment: with religious civs, you can count on (or at least you should try) getting an early cheap temple, even in a settler pump.

	31-12-2002 23:29									#68
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It appears I'm in the minority, which is what I expected. This is one battle I'm not gonna fight: I have no MP experience and furthermore have never really been able to bring myself to try tight city spacing, so I will concede to those who know better.

One request: after we get our first few cities built on good terrain around EotS, can we prioritize getting a city up north in the jungle area to create a buffer zone/early warning system in case of a Vox Immortal attack?

-Arrian

	31-12-2002 23:51									#69
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Actually, an outpost at the top of the mountain range would be better and easier.

	01-01-2003 07:08									#70
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damn*d, Apo lost my post , ok shorter version

quote: This is one battle I'm not gonna fight: I have no MP experience and furthermore have never really been able to bring myself to try tight city spacing, so I will concede to those who know better.

Arrian, I really do not know better, but, I do know the higher the level in SP the closer I pack my cities.
In MP probably even closer then deity.
In emperor we/I go for extra goals/esthetics, not so on deity or MP, here I first want to survive, then give them a challenge, then win

btw, I would even put one or two extra cities in it.

quote: Actually, an outpost at the top of the mountain range would be better and easier.

interesting, where exactly?
Can one build these things outside our borders btw?

	01-01-2003 08:12									#71
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Yeah, you can build outposts anywhere except other civs' territory. They can;t co-exist with forts though, which sucks.

At some point, when we've got a town / city producing 5+ or 10+ shields, if we can slip an extra Worker into the build queue it would be worthwhile to get an outpost built (I'm addicted to them in SP).

	01-01-2003 08:44									#72
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on the other hand, just leaving a warrior up there is more or less the same thing, isn't ?
(before republic anyway)

	06-01-2003 00:57									#73
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Where / what is the latest plan?

(I've been thinking a lot about our current situation... give me a little bit of time to post my thoughts).

	06-01-2003 01:44									#74
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Theseus, it should be in the GS mailbox. Maybe DeepO deleted it, though. If so, I can send it to you myself.


Dominae

	06-01-2003 01:45									#75
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Maybe someone should re-number the city sites to reflect more or less the order in which we're planning to settle them. As of now, I'm not sure what our plan is after site 3.


Dominae

	06-01-2003 01:58									#76
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Nope, it's not there.... can you send it to me?

rpodos at hotmail.com

	06-01-2003 04:51									#77
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I didn't delete it, I thought. Maybe I screwed up... but I'm sending it again to you, Theseus.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 08:40									#78
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Got it, thanks.

	06-01-2003 09:06									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Maybe someone should re-number the city sites to reflect more or less the order in which we're planning to settle them. As of now, I'm not sure what our plan is after site 3. Dominae

For me it would be more confusing to have two different numbering systems than one non-chronological system, but that's just me

	06-01-2003 09:33									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Randolph For me it would be more confusing to have two different numbering systems than one non-chronological system, but that's just me

No, it's not just you. It's me too.

	06-01-2003 09:43									#81
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I prefer directions from existing cities (e.g., 8887 from EotS)... I can;t remember which # city is which.

	06-01-2003 09:57									#82
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If you keep a map handy, you don't have to memorize all the city numbers, although you'll eventually learn a few important ones. And with a map at hand, city numbers involve a simple look-up, whereas directions have to be recalculated each time (unless one wants to memorize a much longer number). Also, while 8887 is not that big a deal to work with, 88888444 (#12 on DeepO's latest map) is.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 10:02									#83
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Omething I used to do in SP was renaming cities to my geografical position.



I would start with a central city and start to make the game map look like a real map.
ex:america
L.A. would be build SW of N.Y.

ex: europe
Brussel N of Paris

(Works better in Belgium, where the capital is dead center. )

	06-01-2003 17:01									#84
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Hmm... I can imagine the numbers are not realy intuitive, I'm used to them by now (I think I know all of them by heart). I don't like the 888884444 things, because indeed, this requires you to learn a much longer number. So why wouldn't we be naming the sites after the cities that will get founded there eventually? I saw a list of city names circulating with more then 14 names on them, so we should have enough of them...

BTW: No map information, please. The idea of using a real situation to remember everything easier is certainly a good one in SP, but not so in MP... as long as someone doesn't get a map of us, they shouldn't have any hint at the layout of our empire.

DeepO