04-11-2000 10:58									#31
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Somewhat late reply... I should read this forum more often.

Mis, I do not think the argument against workshop upgrades is that they are hard to defend against per se, but the fact that they can change the strategic situation in mid-turn. It can be next to impossible to have a meaningful plan when any innocent-looking Scout Patrol can turn into a Shard Squad, Drop Garrison or whatever, *and then immediately be used against your forces who could not have been set up with that in mind*. With Planet busters and X Choppers, at least you know they are there, or will be next turn. With workshop upgraded units, you know *nothing*. I think it is only fair to allow the players the 1 turn reaction time they get to *everything else*.

Also, that rule has been in there from the first version of Zsozso's tournament rules, and I believe he copied those from ACOL. So it seems to be not only a few people at Apolyton who dislike the practice, but a large chunk of the MP players as a whole.

	04-11-2000 00:56									#32
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what will happen to the crawlers when the base uproots?

I'm sure there are ways around this, but PS-PB is truely an evil technique.

	04-11-2000 01:50									#33
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When the base uproots the units normally supported by the base home themselves to the nearest base. What this means is that when you resettle your base, you need to move the crawlers into the base, rehome them and then out to the boreholes and re: "O" them for mins. I forgot to mention resetting the colony pod allows the first base to be established with 10 free mins (assuming no support penalty) thereby allowing colony pod to ususally come out on turn 1. So realistically your resetting your base every 5 turns not 6. My bad.

For laughs and giggles, I tried this once in a double blind tech stag game (as Miriam in a builder role no less) huge world mostly ocean. I was able to get hook or by crook to Industrial Auto. and nabbed both the WP and Planetary transit SP.s I took the opportunity to build my feeder base and t-formed a number of condensor/farms which in turn got crawlered for needed nuts to the target base(s). I was able to support huge set of base populations most of which were specialist moving me tremendously up the power curve all the while running FM/Wealth. Remember condensor/farms deliver 4 nuts (assuming you've made teh square rainy) and that is pre-gene splice!

So to answer a previously asked question why would one want to do do this if you were not set up to handle a stand pop boom especially from a drone standpoint. The answer is simple you don't need the facilities just the nutrients crawlered in to support them and specialize every one you can to rid you of your drone problems. Later on you can add the facilities if you so choose.

Now I fully realize in most MP games this is of little use as the slow pace of Double Blind/ Tech stag huge world would be intolerably slow for most PBEM games.

Og

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited November 03, 2000).]

	07-11-2000 07:58									#34
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Ogie: I take your point on the Planetary Transit System, it's a good one. I've been turning it over for a while. The conclusion I come to though, is that I don't care. After all, there are other SPs far more unbalancing than this. If I compare using the PTS this way with acquiring the Vats, I find it hard to complain at all.

And I am *still* not convinced it's the best use of the turns/minerals etc, although of course that's probably just me being stubborn

I just think that, on the whole, it's better to take the game as it is unless there's something that is *so* outrageous that it's daft. Demon boils from patrol points, multiple drops, that kind of thing.

Thing is, using the PTS the way you describe requires intelligence and planning. Using the Design Workshop to do something really surprising, ditto. If someone did either of these to me ... I think I'd just take the view that I had to try harder.

	07-11-2000 08:03									#35
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Tau: I take your point on the Design Workshop. I probably went in on this harder than I really feel - I get slightly tired every time I hear about yet more personal peccadilloes regarding what is, and what is not, ethical in this game

Having said that, I still think the DW is overrated from that point of view. Maybe in the early game you could pull a few surprises. In a serious war, most people I've observed tend to build lots of a few preferred units. Upgrading via the DW, therefore, becomes an extremely expensive exercise. Now you could build a few - or one - specialised units with a view to upgrading via the DW.

True. And this might indeed be an extremely successful gambit. But it requires serious planning and forethought ... I'm not sure I'd want to rule the gambit out. It would be too interesting

	09-11-2000 06:52									#36
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PTS POD Booming? WOW!!!
This is the most innovative idea I learned in the last months, thanks!
I have right that Mastor game where I play Yang and I have PTS...

About Pod resettlement:
I never said I'd use it as my foretactic.
I considered it under *specific* conditions, and I said in the first place that you'd probably have better uses for your production.
I though of:
- you hit your hab limits, and you're far away from getting the tech. This will 99% happen with STS, not with IndAuto. So we're talking about size14 bases
- this means that you're already oriented towards big bases. In any case, you already occupied all your available tiles with workers and crawlers.
- if your bases are not already tight, you'd better of course found a new one, as long as you can still provide nutrients enough (and you can get old between Orbital & STS) . But there's a limit to ICS too
- you can of course get few formers and perform extensive landfills to gain new firm real estate, or just get seabases (which are tho far less mineral effective)
- if you esteem that the moment is ready for a war, you'd better produce 5 good military units rather than 8 pods
- BUT if new bases are not advisable and it's early for an army overhead, you might even RUN OUT of tiles where to put a crawler on, while your size14 bases already can count on mere 6 tiles each for their workers, well, if you want to increase your votes and increase your specialists building a pod to push another base beyond the 14 limit CAN be as or more effective than building a crawler
- of course in such situation you'll be almost able to produce a pod every turn in a selected base, while you keep it POP booming, thus steadily at size 14

I'd like to expound this more, but it's 2:30am her and i'm asking myself whi i am posting in the first place, leave alone spelchecking

PS: Apolyton ruels derived form ACOL's? WOW! I contributed to write them at OWO time, before ACOL's birth, and later we adopted them there too. DW rule was originally proposed by cousLee, for history's sake.
BTW, isn't there a "Rules Page" in this site?

PPS: Mis, never named a design "upgradable"?

	10-11-2000 09:07									#38
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On seabases ... well yes, they're not mineral-effective. But the game works very well with an energy strategy, and they're perfect for that. They also grow like mushrooms.

Forget pod-booming ... build sea colonies

I'm going to test this pod booming thing and finally find out The Truth.

I've already run 1 game with 2 strategies: my normal style, vs forced boom to get a massive HQ with specialists etc etc very early in the game. By the end of 50 years, and then 65 years, the results were conclusive. My normal game beats the snot out of a forced boom on *every single measure*.

So next, we look at big bases, pre hab dome

	11-11-2000 03:53									#39
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I feel I should chime in here as a former member of the forced pop boom anonymous coalition. I would like to state I no longer support such drastic measures (at least for factions that can pop boom naturally) and have been attending serious de-force-boom-ication classes and seminars. With your further support I know we can beat this thing together. Thank you.

	11-11-2000 04:47									#40
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Just take it one day at a time, WE ...