31-12-2002 01:47									#31
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire Having the Federal government take over the debt of plantation owners Why would they want to do this? If you've based your wealth on slaves, excuse me while I fail to weep when you aren't compensated for your "loss." If that's what you're trying to say with this. If you're referring to the banks who loaned money to the plantationers, well, too bad for them too, although it's more understandable. Sometimes there's a price to be paid for something good.

The Constitution explicitly prohibits taking of propery without compensation. Even freeing slaves by amendment (absent the fun and games and power politicking of reconstruction and military occupation) would not eliminate their status as property at the time of their asquisition. The bankers were too politically influential to suck up those loans, and they collateralized on land, since land outlasted slaves (well treater or, most likely, otherwise). Since we're talking about Yankee political support for a peaceful abolition of slavery, "property compensation" whether popular or not, morally repugnant or not, is an essential legal issue that would have had to be resolved - and this time, one which affected politically influential elites on both sides of the line, and not just unskilled laborers and farmers.

quote: "Moral abolitionists" (those opposed to slavery purely on the grounds of rights, as opposed to those opposed to it because it was the underpinning of the southern economy and the key to breaking the backs of the cotton producers) were a very small minority on the political scene in 1860." So called "Christian conservatives" were actually quite a minority back in the late 70's and 80's, when they started coming to prominence. That was what the Democrats kept telling themselves, at least, and I'm willing to believe it was true. That said, they were a minority that was far more influential than their numbers ever told. And they still are more influential than they "should be" based on strict numbers alone. I suspect it was much the same with the abolitionists. Numerical insignificance does not always translate to political insignificance.

The difference is that the rhetoric of freeing slaves was a lot more palatable than the brute practical economic effects in the conxtext of Federal powers and revenues and the regulatory climate of the time. The concepts of massive taxation, economic aid, etc., just didn't exist. So getting people fired up was one thing, but for most, they would be more concerned with the practical effects on their lives.

quote: after all, we still kicked your asses in anything close to a standup fight And yet oddly enough, when the CSA used a general who actually believed this drivel (like, say, Hood over Johnston in Georgia), they got whupped! Fascinating!

Hood can't be blamed for his failures in Tennessee. He pointed out his own lack of qualification for independent command, made his medical condition clear (as if it wasn't to everyone around) and only accepted command because he was ordered to do so.

And to call that statement drivel, you really have to work hard at ignoring Pope's being routed off the field at Second Manassas, Hooker's loss of manhood at Chancellorsville, and dozens of other examples which went to explain why the sound of the Rebel yell put the Yankee latrines to overflowing.

quote: The reason that the CSA had better generals much of the war was precisely because they fought unfairly, which I applaud 'em for- 'cause in a fair fight, we all know what happens to the puny little Confederates. ;-)

Unfairly, as in how exactly? By using timing, concentration, knowledge of the ground, and superior march discipline?

quote: Even given those advantages, on the second day, it was random luck Hey, it wasn't all Confederate mistakes that caused y'all to lose. Everybody remembers Chamberlain and his actions on Little Round Top, but how about the 1st Minnesota's little charge? It takes 2 to fight a battle.

Chamberlain whould have had his ass enfiladed off of little round top if Hood hadn't been wounded. Col. William C. Oates' 15th Alabama owned Round Top, in accordance with Hood's orders, but when Oates' brigade commander (Law) assumed command of the division, he countermanded Hood's orders and pulled Oates and the rest of his brigade (split in two elements who couldn't coordinate due to intervening terrain) back off Round Top and proceeded to assault the flank on LRT. Had Hood not been wounded and taken off the field, two batteries of Hood's divisional artillery would have been up on Round Top, in position to enfilade the entire Yankee left and center all the way up to Cemetary Hill, and all the Yankee artillery reserve in the world couldn't have done anything about it.

First Minnesota made a gallant little countercharge, but by that time, Barksdale's brigade was nearly spent from sweeping the better part of three Yankee divisions from the field. First Minnesota's countercharge would have been a footnote in futility if the echelon attack hadn't broken down because of Richard H. Anderson's reticence because he hadn't gotten written orders from Hill (who assumed that Anderson was under operational control of Longstreet since the echelon attack originated from Longstreet's Corps and at Longstreet's directive. Pender was riding over to put a fire under Anderson's ass and order Anderson's brigades to move out in support of McLaw's division when he was hit by a fragment of a prematurely exploding shell that nearly took his leg off at the thigh.

quote: "a rich man's war and a poor man's fight" I won't argue with you that maybe this was used in the North too, but I'm sure this was a Southern expression, being that they had the same issue with rich people getting exempted from army service. The difference is, the South had a lot fewer people, so lots more poor people were required.

The expression originated with northeastern regiments with a lot of Irish immigrants. If the Yankees didn't need so many poor people, why did they pass the Homestead Act to spur immigration, and why did Carl Schurz later get plummed with the Secretary of the Interior's job (most lucrative in the government after War and Treasury) for his contribution in "social engineering" German immigrants into the Yankee army?

	31-12-2002 01:51									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: More like a progressive meatgrinder, with the two Yankee butchers realizing they had more meat to throw into the grinder. You mean they were smarter than the Southern generals? Who would have thunk it .

If reverse attrition is "smart" you can have it. Jackson's tactics are still studied, Grant's aren't.

quote: And you forgot that masterful taking of Vicksburg by 'butcher' Grant.

Oh, I didn't forget that one. Let's see. Try it this way, get your asses kicked. Try it that way, get your asses kicked. Try to run the river, get your asses sunk. Dig a ditch, aaah, fergit it, let's try to sneak around this way instead. Damn! He finally figgered it out!

Practice makes perfect, they say.

	31-12-2002 01:58									#33
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What else is there to Souther Heritage/Pride etc. except white supremacy? Who today foundly reminices about the struggle against tarrifs?

	31-12-2002 02:13									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What else is there to Souther Heritage/Pride etc. except white supremacy? Who today foundly reminices about the struggle against tarrifs?

I agree with you completely. I say its equal in stature to a german walking around with a swastika symbol claiming it to be german pride...

	31-12-2002 02:27									#35
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I thought the Republican Party (abe's) was founded on the belief that slavery was wrong because it was unfair competition for the "free white working man."

quote: Chamberlain whould have had his ass enfiladed off of little round top if Hood hadn't been wounded. Col. William C. Oates' 15th Alabama owned Round Top, in accordance with Hood's orders, but when Oates' brigade commander (Law) assumed command of the division, he countermanded Hood's orders and pulled Oates and the rest of his brigade (split in two elements who couldn't coordinate due to intervening terrain) back off Round Top and proceeded to assault the flank on LRT. Had Hood not been wounded and taken off the field, two batteries of Hood's divisional artillery would have been up on Round Top, in position to enfilade the entire Yankee left and center all the way up to Cemetary Hill, and all the Yankee artillery reserve in the world couldn't have done anything about it. First Minnesota made a gallant little countercharge, but by that time, Barksdale's brigade was nearly spent from sweeping the better part of three Yankee divisions from the field. First Minnesota's countercharge would have been a footnote in futility if the echelon attack hadn't broken down because of Richard H. Anderson's reticence because he hadn't gotten written orders from Hill (who assumed that Anderson was under operational control of Longstreet since the echelon attack originated from Longstreet's Corps and at Longstreet's directive. Pender was riding over to put a fire under Anderson's ass and order Anderson's brigades to move out in support of McLaw's division when he was hit by a fragment of a prematurely exploding shell that nearly took his leg off at the thigh. Chamberlain whould have had his ass enfiladed off of little round top if Hood hadn't been wounded. Col. William C. Oates' 15th Alabama owned Round Top, in accordance with Hood's orders, but when Oates' brigade commander (Law) assumed command of the division, he countermanded Hood's orders and pulled Oates and the rest of his brigade (split in two elements who couldn't coordinate due to intervening terrain) back off Round Top and proceeded to assault the flank on LRT. Had Hood not been wounded and taken off the field, two batteries of Hood's divisional artillery would have been up on Round Top, in position to enfilade the entire Yankee left and center all the way up to Cemetary Hill, and all the Yankee artillery reserve in the world couldn't have done anything about it. First Minnesota made a gallant little countercharge, but by that time, Barksdale's brigade was nearly spent from sweeping the better part of three Yankee divisions from the field. First Minnesota's countercharge would have been a footnote in futility if the echelon attack hadn't broken down because of Richard H. Anderson's reticence because he hadn't gotten written orders from Hill (who assumed that Anderson was under operational control of Longstreet since the echelon attack originated from Longstreet's Corps and at Longstreet's directive. Pender was riding over to put a fire under Anderson's ass and order Anderson's brigades to move out in support of McLaw's division when he was hit by a fragment of a prematurely exploding shell that nearly took his leg off at the thigh.

To make the long story short, the confeds lost
Maybe Hood shouldnt have exposed himself to enemy fire
Maybe he should have had better subordinates
Are you saying that Hood was the only person who knew what to do in that situation?
What happened to the great generalship and tactics of the south?

and BTW, Grant was a tactical dumbass. Sherman won the war for the North. Grant was only a genius in that he invented a new form of warfare: a war of attrition, which he knew that he could win because he had more people .

	31-12-2002 02:35									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What else is there to Souther Heritage/Pride etc. except white supremacy? Who today foundly reminices about the struggle against tarrifs?

What is there to any "heritage" or pride in one's origins, personal, local, or regional history?

Funny, all over the US, I've seen different historical sites preserved, local museums, etc. Battlefield monuments (a la Bunkers Hill), and various local history organizations.

It seems it's only with southerners that the race card gets pulled out, as if racism (or other forms of exploitation) *cough* Pullman strike *cough* Grangers *cough* Anti-Chinese Leagues *cough* Molly Maguires and coal miners in general *cough* weren't part and parcel of history of other parts in the US.

In Boston, in the same cemetary where Sam Adams and Ben Franklin are buried, is the grave of a 16 year old Quaker girl, who was hanged by the Puritans for supposedly proselytizing her quaker beliefs. Descendents of the Puritans aren't generally tarred with the brush of their ancestors' murderous fanaticism, nor are pioneer organizations in various states tarred much with the fact that their pioneering settlement came about as a result of long-term genocide against the majority of the natives already present.

It's real fashionable for people to ignore the ugly side of their history, and only point to the south. Sorry, but most of the Klan and active white supremacists are elsewhere now (according to the FBI), and racism exists everywhere in the US, not just south of the Mason-Dixon line.

	31-12-2002 02:40									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Maybe Hood shouldnt have exposed himself to enemy fire

You can't lead from behind.

quote: Are you saying that Hood was the only person who knew what to do in that situation?

Hood was in command at the time, executing his own plans contrary to orders because he was able to see the terrain and the (lack of proper) disposition of the enemy, something his seniors could not physically see.

Hood was creating the plan as he went along, and any forced change of senior command in the heat of battle creates severe problems.

quote: What happened to the great generalship and tactics of the south?

There was plenty of it, before and after. Otherwise, the south wouldn't have been up in Pennsylvania 27 months after the start of hostilities.

	31-12-2002 02:58									#38
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"It seems it's only with southerners that the race card gets pulled out, as if racism (or other forms of exploitation) *cough* Pullman strike *cough* Grangers *cough* Anti-Chinese Leagues *cough* Molly Maguires and coal miners in general *cough* weren't part and parcel of history of other parts in the US."

Oh, here we go. Try to divert attention from the real issue at hand.

The issue at hand is that some white southerners want to prominently display the reb battle flag and other confederate effects and some black southerners are offended or may feel threatened by it.

I'm saying that those whites who feel so strongly about it are being too cute by half in associating it with the good parts of Southern Heritage. It's about like Lott "slipping up" and insinuating that segregation was AOK by him. Oh wait, that was just a lighthearted comment for his friend.

Everyone else in the US should call a spade a spade and not stand for it. At the very least, it's being unneighborly of those who push it.

	31-12-2002 03:28									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's about like Lott "slipping up" and insinuating that segregation was AOK by him. Oh wait, that was just a lighthearted comment for his friend.

And where were these people that cried foul now back when Lott said what he said first time around? Need I remind you that democratic leaders have said far worse, not to mention the party platform before FDR.

That whole situation was caused because Democrates have no agenda.

Oh, and for the record, I'm a reg. Independent. So you can't say I have a right wing agenda.

	31-12-2002 05:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Oh, here we go. Try to divert attention from the real issue at hand.

I didn't realize that southern racism was the "real issue." I would think we'd be concerned about racism and human rights in general, regardless of the region of origin of those who practice it.

quote: The issue at hand is that some white southerners want to prominently display the reb battle flag and other confederate effects and some black southerners are offended or may feel threatened by it.

I don't support shoving it in people's faces. On state buildings, in state flags, nope, nosirree, ain't necessary. In museums related to the war and the Confederacy, in cemetaries, during batlle reenactments, etc., it has its appropriate place in its historical context. On private property, it ain't nobody's business.

If your concern was about flag displays, why then did you entitle the thread "'Southern Heritage' is all about race?" (my emphasis)

quote: I'm saying that those whites who feel so strongly about it are being too cute by half in associating it with the good parts of Southern Heritage. It's about like Lott "slipping up" and insinuating that segregation was AOK by him. Oh wait, that was just a lighthearted comment for his friend.

Lott's been nothing but consistent in his history and attidudes, so why the sudden flap now? 'Cause he said it at a time when it was memorable from a political point of view?

quote: Everyone else in the US should call a spade a spade and not stand for it. At the very least, it's being unneighborly of those who push it.

Pushing it is one thing (and is more than a tad unneighborly), First Amendment rights are another. What sorts of other unpopular symbols are we going to regulate?

	31-12-2002 05:46									#41
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Hooker's loss of manhood at Chancellorsville

Yeah, well, um, oh yeah?!

Okay, point granted on that one.

Unfairly, as in how exactly? By using timing, concentration, knowledge of the ground, and superior march discipline?

Yup. All that makes for an unfair fight. A fair fight is a proper British style thing on a nice flat plain where both sides can get good and ready, and both sides simultaneously charge each other, or something. I mean, if I concentrate my force of 20,000 and unfairly take out an unorganized group one small piece at a time, that's hardly fair, eh?

Pender was riding over to put a fire under Anderson's ass and order Anderson's brigades to move out in support of McLaw's division when he was hit by a fragment of a prematurely exploding shell that nearly took his leg off at the thigh.

Now that bit I didn't know. Interesting. Good work to the boys in the artillery though.

Moving on to a more relevant topic, what's this new Georgia governor going to be like? On one hand, he's shaking up a 100 years of Democratic domination, and might be able to shake out a few corrupt positions that are just leeches on the government (or then again, he might choose to replace 'em with his own people). I'm slightly worried about this flag referendum deal, though- I suppose I don't have a problem with the referendum, as long as the CSA flag loses. Also, will his positions be sold out to the rednecks who wanted the referendum?

Don't know enough about the guy or his campaign to say, but it will be interesting to see how it turns out...

	31-12-2002 05:55									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat What is there to any "heritage" or pride in one's origins, personal, local, or regional history? Funny, all over the US, I've seen different historical sites preserved, local museums, etc. Battlefield monuments (a la Bunkers Hill), and various local history organizations. It seems it's only with southerners that the race card gets pulled out, as if racism (or other forms of exploitation) *cough* Pullman strike *cough* Grangers *cough* Anti-Chinese Leagues *cough* Molly Maguires and coal miners in general *cough* weren't part and parcel of history of other parts in the US. In Boston, in the same cemetary where Sam Adams and Ben Franklin are buried, is the grave of a 16 year old Quaker girl, who was hanged by the Puritans for supposedly proselytizing her quaker beliefs. Descendents of the Puritans aren't generally tarred with the brush of their ancestors' murderous fanaticism, nor are pioneer organizations in various states tarred much with the fact that their pioneering settlement came about as a result of long-term genocide against the majority of the natives already present. It's real fashionable for people to ignore the ugly side of their history, and only point to the south. Sorry, but most of the Klan and active white supremacists are elsewhere now (according to the FBI), and racism exists everywhere in the US, not just south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Very good points. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

	31-12-2002 07:17									#43
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"The monolith argument is as full of BS as any of the southern revisionists' claims."
Whoah whoah whoah! Leave me out of this!
And if I heard you correct, MtG, you said that blacks were officially property at the time of the emancipation proclamation...
Well, that's the whole thing about the emancipation proclamation, I gathered, was that it was declaring something NOT property. If the North had stolen the Confederate slaves, and used them for its own persons, THEN it would've been THEFT. If you wish to persist with this antiquated metaphor of slaves as property, then I would say that the emancipation proclamation would be similar now to the government saying "yes, now all toasters are free, they can no longer be ruled by you!"

	31-12-2002 07:32									#44
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "The monolith argument is as full of BS as any of the southern revisionists' claims." Whoah whoah whoah! Leave me out of this! And if I heard you correct, MtG, you said that blacks were officially property at the time of the emancipation proclamation... Well, that's the whole thing about the emancipation proclamation, I gathered, was that it was declaring something NOT property. If the North had stolen the Confederate slaves, and used them for its own persons, THEN it would've been THEFT. If you wish to persist with this antiquated metaphor of slaves as property, then I would say that the emancipation proclamation would be similar now to the government saying "yes, now all toasters are free, they can no longer be ruled by you!"

"That's right. I burned your toast. What you going to do about it b!tch?"

	31-12-2002 09:29									#45
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And since some people may have forgotten, some nice views of the Civil war:



Not all southerners think pride equals racism, but there are some that still do.

	31-12-2002 12:08									#46
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ya I can see everyone is white... so you claiming the artist was a racist?

	31-12-2002 12:42									#47
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Umm...y'all are missing something, if "Southern Heritage" is about racial supremacy, then "American Heritage" is no different since US history included the genocide of a different race of people - Indians. While Uncle Abe was saving the US from slavery, he was signing mandates authorising and promoting genocide out west.

	31-12-2002 12:48									#48
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quote: In Boston, in the same cemetary where Sam Adams and Ben Franklin are buried, is the grave of a 16 year old Quaker girl, who was hanged by the Puritans for supposedly proselytizing her quaker beliefs.

Damn Puritans, some comedian said her ancestors - Puritans - fled Britain because they weren't allowed to persecute others enough, not because they were persecuted. Many people confuse the Puritans with the Pilgrims who arrived 10-15 years before. When the Puritans arrived, Pilgrims like Roger Williams knew what they were like and he led a group off to found Rhode Island. I can just see him at first sight of the Puritans landing, "OH ****! There goes the neighborhood!

	31-12-2002 13:47									#49
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Here is Lincoln's thoughts on what was important.

quote: Executive Mansion, Washington, August 22, 1862. Hon. Horace Greeley: Dear Sir. I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

here is the full text

http://showcase.netins.net/web/crea...hes/greeley.htm

	31-12-2002 14:14									#50
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Symbols are a funny thing. How many people that protest the battle flag and say that its racist, would be able to pick out the Confederate National Flag? Why so much attention paid to the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia?


And here is another good story

quote: John Abbott Independence Lee, the last true Virginian to have ever touched the Battle Flag of the 28th Virginia Infantry, would roll over in his grave to see Virginia asking the Army of the Potomac to get his flag back. Three weeks before Gettysberg the 28th received their new battle flag. Made of a wool from England called bunting, it was said to be more durable in battle than their silk flag. Sewn for them by the women of Richmond, the flag had blue stripes and white stars made of cotton with the words "28th Va. Infy" sewn in. Battle Flags are the pride of any military unit and holding the units colors in battle is a great honor. Only the capture of a regiment's flag could, in the American Civil War, be a greater honor. For the Army of the North that meant a Congressional Medal of Honor and a raise in Pay. Private Marshall Sherman a member of the 1st Minnesota Volunteer Infantry, the same unit that the day before assisted in repulsing General George Pickett's charge and in the process lost over 50% of its men, spotted a Virginian "shouting like mad" and Waving a rebel flag. Sherman who hadn't been in the prior days carnage, charged that color bearer through a hail of bullets, Jabbed his bayonet at John Lee's chest and said, "Throw down that flag or I'll run through." At least that is how the story has always been told in Minnesota. Now we jump to 2001 and see that the State of Minnesota refused a request from the State of Virginia to get their flag back . Virginia had stated that a 1905 resolution by the US Congress says that flags captured in battle should be returned to the original states. In 1998 Minnesota Attorney General Hubert Humphrey lll said that law only applied to flags in the possession of the War Department. Minnesota refused to return the flag. The flag is currently kept by the Minnesota Historical Society at a constant 70 degrees and 50% humidity, in Saint Paul. Attorney General Humphrey has some support in history for keeping this flag. Confederacy's own Jefferson Davis said The banners belonged to the states whose troops had captured them and to return the flags violated "all known military precedents." Fitzhugh Lee, former Governor of Virginia, Confederate veteran, and the great general's nephew, said the banners "are the property of the victors" June 18 2002 The United States Army's chief of military history, Brigadier John S. Brown issued a decision that a blood stained, bullet- pierced Confederate flag that Minnesota's 1st Volunteer Infantry captured 139 years ago belongs to the federal government and plans to house the flag at an Army museum in Virginia. Minnesota's Historical Society's deputy director, Ian Stewart says "We do not consider General Brown's opinion a legal ruling" and "We also do not anticipate following his suggestion that we turn over the flag to the Army museum proposed in Virginia." General Brown has written to the Virginia congressional delegation, "We intend that the flag be returned to the Army" for exhibit at the Army's National Museum scheduled to open in 2009 in Fort Belvoir, Va. Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura when asked about returning the flag said "Why? I mean, we won." So after 139 years the pride of the 28th Virginia Infantry won't really be coming home, but could reside in a "Blue belly" museum, that is if that Army of the North can capture the flag from another state that believes in "States Rights."

	31-12-2002 14:48									#51
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As a random aside, our PBS station showed one of Ken Burns older documentaries (made in '85 or so) today on Huey Long. Yikes, that was a scary guy. Sure, I knew that he ran Louisana like his own personal fief, and that he was popular, and that he wanted to run for president in 1936, but I never got a chance to actually see him speak before, or see the backwater hicks who swore he was their great champion. Absolutely horrifying how well he does the "See? Democracy's not working. Maybe I should just do everything now" act.

y'all are missing something, if "Southern Heritage" is about racial supremacy, then "American Heritage" is no different since US history included the genocide of a different race of people - Indians

Knowing your political slant... which would you prefer? That SCOTUS hand down a decision that you agreed with the results of, but used statist principles to defend it (and as a precedent for further application by lower courts)? Or a decision that you disagree with based firmly on Libertarian principles?

Hopefully, you'd answer the second. But why bring this up? Simple. America was never founded on oppressing Indians. It ended up being a bloody side note where we didn't live up to our ideals. However, the CSA was founded on slavery- ignore the question for a moment of whether it was the main thing, blah, blah, blah, but it's right in the CSA constitution and multiple statesmen announced that as a main reason for secession, to stop that crazy Lincoln who wants to free the slaves.

Now, I'll agree that this applies more to "Confederate heritage" if we're using proper grammar, but every time Southern heritage comes up, out come the stars & bars, so the two seem to have merged into one.

	31-12-2002 15:43									#52
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Southern heritage is a synonym for racial supremacy. It's a shame history and culture has been hijacked in this manner, but that's the way it is. The Confederate battle flag, while representing the distinct culture and history of the South, as well as fighting for ideals like free trade and de-centralized governments, it also represents the ideal of slavery and the armed revolt in the name of it. Furthermore, the recent crop of battle flags on Southern capital buildings were not raised to celebrate multi-culturalism, but rather were raised in defiance of those evil de-segrationists. That's the way it happened; get over it and pick some new symbol to celebrate Southern culture.

	01-01-2003 01:32									#53
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Just a couple of things to point out:

1) I agree that Grant as a General was very overrated, though he gets way too much credit for his tatics his aggressive execution of his army was pretty good. Old General Scott should be credited for the Anaconda Plan, most notably the blockade of the Southern ports and also for cutting the Mississippi in half in the West.

2) Actually I would disagree with MTG's assessment of the Emancipation Proclomation and say it was one of the most brilliant tactical moves on Lincoln's part. Before the Emancipation Proc. Union morale was low, but after its issuance, Union soliders began to fight with spirit and used slavery as their moral cause and beleived they were fighting on the moral high ground.

	01-01-2003 02:29									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It's real fashionable for people to ignore the ugly side of their history, and only point to the south. Sorry, but most of the Klan and active white supremacists are elsewhere now (according to the FBI), and racism exists everywhere in the US, not just south of the Mason-Dixon line.

True, but the rest of the country doesn't glorify it or minimize it's impact. There is no neo-Mollly Maguire movement or neo-Puritan movement. While we use Pilgram imagery in our Thanksgiving celebrations, there is also a simulatenious twinge of guilt in knowing that "we" betrayed those who saved our national ancestors.

People give the South a lot of sh*t. Inbred, illiterate, racist yokels is how much of the country views the South (and I think my Jacksonville location may be hurting my job hunt for this very reason). But "Southern Pride" raises the same hackles on the back of the neck that Poles and the French feel when someone starts talking about German nationalism.

While the extremists are more powerful outside the South, there is a reason why there is a Republican "Southern Strategy." Blacks are still frequently disenfrachised in the South, as seen most openly in Florida's last two elections (and their primaries).

The South has made impressive strides in overcoming its past, but it's still pretty damned scary at times.

	01-01-2003 02:31									#55
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I'd just like to register my disappointment at not seeing the "pimp" smiley in the first Ted Striker post I've seen in many moons.

	01-01-2003 02:31									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Although preservation of slavery was the rallying call for the landed elite, I think the overall issue goes deeper than that, to a power struggle between elites on both sides of the line, due to the economic value of cotton, and the division of profits between producers and manufacturers. There was an effective trade war, of which slavery was a key ingredient, but the issue for the economic elites was not really about the "rights" of a bunch of kidnapped Africans and their descendants.

Exactly!

	01-01-2003 02:39									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If reverse attrition is "smart" you can have it. Jackson's tactics are still studied, Grant's aren't.

Maybe so, but Grant's still seem to be the ones we've used up until very recently. Americans don't win by superior tactics. We win by overwhelming the enemy through superior numbers and/or superior firepower, Yankee stubornness, and dumb luck. Outside the Civil War, no one ever discusses our tactical brilliance.

	01-01-2003 02:39									#58
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Guynemer,

It is great to see you! I had forgotten about the pimp smilie, but luckily I found it on the hard drive!

But you know, unless your name is Infatplayeration, pimpin' aint' easy:

Attachment: pimp.gif
This has been downloaded 31 time(s).

	01-01-2003 02:58									#59
	Re: Don't Kid Yourself -- "Southern Heritage" Is All About Race Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DanS Whenever I see the stars and bars, I'm reminded of Southern Heritage, but not in anyway good. I'm reminded that the civil war really was fought for slavery on the South's part and against it on the North's. For some reason we're supposed to ignore the "elephant in our living room" of slavery in the whole mess for the sake of Southern pride--what a charade. I'm reminded that we're only 40 years from segregation even here in the Nation's capital. My sister lives in Louisiana, and the common refrain among whites (including her, by now) is that this heritage stuff is about the freedom blah. But the truth remains. The power structure is still white in most areas and many blacks feel instinctively threatened by it. The blacks are the poorest of the lot. Good thing we don't have Lott as our GOP leader any more. A GOP made up of "Southern Heritage" codewords ain't my Grand Ole Party. "Southern Heritage" is just a code word for keeping the blacks down. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Dec29.html

Perfect illustration of why the Confederacy was formed.
Endless yada-yada by chest-thumping snobs.