02-01-2003 23:24									#31
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When you make children's beginnings the same, you generally make them the same. I think that was the point. You're probably not going to make a math genuis in your cold, impersonal, and uncaring upbringing.

	02-01-2003 23:28									#32
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quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor When you have children, and someone starts telling you that you're disgustingly selfish for wanting the best for them, I'm sure you will appropriately tell them where they can go stick it.

If you knew a few ****ed up kids like I do, then you'd see why your system (and not that their parents don't love them) is really hurting others.

quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor When you make children's beginnings the same, you generally make them the same. I think that was the point. You're probably not going to make a math genuis in your cold, impersonal, and uncaring upbringing.

There are many people who have different talents than their parents do and have interests that their parents have had nothing to do with. They succeeded in areas without help from parents.

	02-01-2003 23:35									#33
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Children of ophanages tend to be pretty messed up.

	02-01-2003 23:37									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Children of ophanages tend to be pretty messed up.

Like I said, it is silly to believe that if every child was brought up by the government, the facilities would be at the level of orphanages.

	02-01-2003 23:40									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Like I said, it is silly to believe that if every child was brought up by the government, the facilities would be at the level of orphanages.

Indeed, they'd probably be much worse off.

	02-01-2003 23:42									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Like I said, it is silly to believe that if every child was brought up by the government, the facilities would be at the level of orphanages.

1) prisons

2) mental institutes before nearly all the mentally ill were dumped on the streets

3) public schools

	02-01-2003 23:46									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse There are many people who have different talents than their parents do and have interests that their parents have had nothing to do with. They succeeded in areas without help from parents.

Of course, that is absolutely correct. I never claimed otherwise. But it is proven, from a pyschological standpoint, that children need a strong bond with a primary caregiver before they feel comfortable exploring the world around them. And I plan on helping my son learn about things that I didn't learn about when I was young. Maybe I'll learn a little bit with him, who knows. Of course, I will not learn as much as he will because children are learning geniuses.

The idea of giving up children so they can live in a group home, any group home, no matter how well run, is completely horrific to me. What about breastfeeding? We should pump and send it to them in bottles maybe, right? WHY? I know a much easier way. Wait, wait, I shouldn't be breastfeeding my son because not all children get that. I forgot.

	02-01-2003 23:48									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara 1) prisons 2) mental institutes before nearly all the mentally ill were dumped on the streets 3) public schools

Really, your claim that government can do anything of this nature well is unsubstantiated by reality. Do you think that just throwing more money at it will make it better? I don't think so.

	02-01-2003 23:53									#39
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[sarcasm] Of course it would. All that Ridlin (can you say SOMA) would make it a veritable wonderland. [/sarcasm]

	02-01-2003 23:58									#40
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Most likely, if children were removed from their parents, the bond between parents and children would be broken. Children would get the short end of the stick, funding wise, as people would want to keep more of their money for themselves.

Heck, people have their own kids now, and we shaft kids funding wise. How many states have their education budget "supplimented (i.e., funded) by lotteries rather than making sure schools have the resources they need to function adequately?

Another point that should be made is that having children tends to force people to be more responsible and mature. If you could have kids and not have to care for them, why worry about birth control? Why save for the future? You could act like a 20-something for the rest of your life.

Personally, I think the best way to raise children would be collectively. For example, have groups of parents with children raising their kids together. Resources are maximized, parents get plenty of support (something which is severely lacking in the nuclear family), and children have plenty of playmates. Humans are group animals, and the further we get from that, the more messed up we become.

	03-01-2003 00:04									#41
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I actually agree Che, one could easily see that a racially integrated collective (**shudders at the word**) could have socially positive effects amongst the other benefits you've listed.

The conflicts would arise where parents wish to teach social values that may not be in keeping with the Borg collective.

OTOH this is a trend already happening. Daycares often have support groups where working parents volunteer to be weekend sitters and the like.

	03-01-2003 00:11									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse A common misconception is that loving parents are needed for children. One of the reason so many people are messed up over this issue is soley because they harp on how their parents don't love them, but not on any results of this. You remove the jealousy and envy and you remove the major problem with kids who don't have loving parents.

Not true, parents play a vital role in the raising of human beings. From an anthropological standpoint:

Culture is any learned behavior accepted by the majority of people in a given area. Enculturation is the act of a human being learning culture at a young age.

Children who are neglected are not being taught proper cultural norms, or at least are missing out on some, and thus become less well rounded humans. For instance, it is a cultural norm in our society (pretty much any society) for people not to rob and kill. You'll find a large large majority of convicted criminals having been raised in neglecting households, to some extent at least, and often times its because these cultural norms haven't been learned by the parents themselves because they were never taught as children. See how it perpetuates itself?

Humans who are able to most successfully adapt to the cultural norms of their group will be the ones that are the most successful, this can't be refuted. Millions of years of evolution back this up. A million years ago, the monkey that was running around the grasslands instead of helping the rest of his group dig up roots and ants to eat was the monkey that died... and with him, so did his genes.

Humans are meant (in every sense of the word) to have a parental unit (whether that be a single mom, a gay dad, whatever) to individually teach them and perhaps a few others the cultural norms they should know. All they are are "cultural tutors". The ones that don't have this, while they can grow up just fine and if they do its because they learned the norms elsewhere... however, this is rarely successful. Having children being raised by the government is not in our hardware. It wouldn't work.

Sorry for the rant, but I just love anthropology

	03-01-2003 00:12									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara 1) prisons 2) mental institutes before nearly all the mentally ill were dumped on the streets 3) public schools

Public schools are really the only ones that apply here. Not public schools are bad mind you, and there are other countries that have been able to produce good public schools.

quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor Of course, that is absolutely correct. I never claimed otherwise. But it is proven, from a pyschological standpoint, that children need a strong bond with a primary caregiver before they feel comfortable exploring the world around them. And I plan on helping my son learn about things that I didn't learn about when I was young. Maybe I'll learn a little bit with him, who knows. Of course, I will not learn as much as he will because children are learning geniuses.

I'm sorry but that is complete bullshit. I don't think Speer has a strong bond with parents, but he is still very intelligent whether you agree with him on anything or not.

I really didn't want to bring myself into this debate, but I've accomplished a large amount without a strong bond with my parents. I'm editor-in-chief of one of the best high school newspapers in the country. Heck, if I had I strong bond with my parents, I probably wouldn't have started the Alpha Centauri Nexus which was more popular than Apolyton's BAC when SMAC came out almost 4 years ago. If anything, not having a strong bond has given me an opportunity to expand.

quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor The idea of giving up children so they can live in a group home, any group home, no matter how well run, is completely horrific to me. What about breastfeeding? We should pump and send it to them in bottles maybe, right? WHY? I know a much easier way. Wait, wait, I shouldn't be breastfeeding my son because not all children get that. I forgot.

They wouldn't be necessarily taken away so much as never yours to begin with.

Breast feeding isn't needed anyway. If anything, ending breast feeding will end freaks with lactation fetishes.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Another point that should be made is that having children tends to force people to be more responsible and mature. If you could have kids and not have to care for them, why worry about birth control? Why save for the future? You could act like a 20-something for the rest of your life.

If you have kids, you pay taxes to support them. That's how.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Personally, I think the best way to raise children would be collectively. For example, have groups of parents with children raising their kids together. Resources are maximized, parents get plenty of support (something which is severely lacking in the nuclear family), and children have plenty of playmates. Humans are group animals, and the further we get from that, the more messed up we become.

I would like to see this happen, but it wouldn't. It's just some utopian dream.

	03-01-2003 00:12									#44
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How about the Kibbutz children?

the were raised in a creche, but knew who their parents were, saw them everyday, and lived with them on weekends. The kids were not messed up, but grew up to be healthy, mentally stable, strong willed individuals. Sadly, the system is now being abandoned in favour of the traditional family.

	03-01-2003 00:14									#45
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bah! There is nothing wrong with a libertarian goverment.

except rampant crime . But that can be dealt with vigilante style

	03-01-2003 00:52									#46
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Ya well i have to say some of yall must be a bit messed up... listen to yourselves i mean honestly.

Ok your ideas for procreation are extremely blurred. Because some of yall got screwed out of a nicer childhood and set of parents does not mean that everyone should be. The majority of people are in loving families then nonloving.

As someone said, i forget who but someone did, about wanting loving parents is selfish...its selfish for those w/o them to ask those with to give them up.

	03-01-2003 01:46									#47
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How exactly are a few government workers and beucrats supposed to raise an entire population of children with out any parent's help, anyways? Despite all of your "nuh-uhs" such a system would be infinately worse then how orphanages are run, and would be impossible to get working well.

You call collective parenting a "utopian dream" but government controled creches a possible (and appealing) reality?

	03-01-2003 02:31									#48
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I don't think Apoc would have this point of view if he had better parents. Really, his argument isn't a criticism of the people on this board but of his own family.

He's still wrong, he's just wrong for a reason.

	03-01-2003 03:05									#49
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Thats extremely true felch...i kno apoc and how true it is...

	03-01-2003 03:07									#50
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Speer,

I agree 100% with you. It's some fantasy world where Libertarians just expect that all of the poor people will just be magically taken care by the goodness of people's hearts. We know that just doesn't happen.

Libertarians if the government is stealing your money then get the **** off the freeways and stop calling 911.

	03-01-2003 03:13									#51
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The only thing I dont get is that the hard core Libs dont seem to see how monopolies can screw you over.

	03-01-2003 04:35									#52
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That's because they believe that if monopolies get out of hand, someone will step in to sell a better product at a lower price. If the monopoly changes it's ways, the consumer still benefits. In actuality, the monopoly would squash the upstart like a bug through nefarious means, but we can let them have their little fantasy.

	03-01-2003 04:42									#53
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Chegitz:

I agree... libertarian idealogy would work in Jefferson's time but not after the industrial revolution when massive, impersonal corporations formed... true capitalism is one of small businesses not monopolies...


thanks

	03-01-2003 05:23									#54
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You don't know jack about what true capitalism is.

	03-01-2003 05:26									#55
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true capitalism lies in those who are die hard up for there means of revenue. the mom and pop stores who work for there money is capitalism

	03-01-2003 05:42									#56
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My comment goes for you also.

	03-01-2003 05:50									#57
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Che's right. Small establishments of commerce have been around since days immemorial. They certainly aren't something unique to capitalism, much less something that typifies it. Capitalism is really a pretty bad economic philosophy for these types of small buisnesses. It's just that these kinds of examples are just part of the romantic spin that people like to put on capitalism.

	03-01-2003 05:59									#58
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no no no ur wrong hate to say it but ya know. i dont kno what you have been smoking but capitalism isnt bad for these small businesses...without capitalism where would they be? nowhere. they would lose personality and the right to be themselves, a small PERSONAL business

	03-01-2003 06:05									#59
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The central problem for Libertarians is that thinkers like Plato and Hobbes are right and they are wrong. Large and complex social institutions like markets don't just naturally spring up as "free individuals" associate with each other, they are created slowly and over time, just as "free individuals" are not born, they are merely acculturated into a certain mode of belief and expectation.

After all, if you think about the repugnance most of us show towards the sale of bodily organs, then you can appreciate how long it took our ancestors to work themselves up to such things as selling land.

Moreover, exchange economies require a huge bureaucratic apparatus to keep track of who owns what and who owes what to whom. A system of voluntary taxation would quickly destroy the market mechanism because it would generate a "prisoner's dilemma" situation in which self interest would reasonably lead to a worse outcome for everyone.

In fact, if any libertarians are reading this, how about you tell us how a Libertarian polity would solve "prisoner's dilemma" problems without either destroying itself completely or compromising its own principles? I'd really like to know...

Of course all the libertarians could do the decent thing and get real...

	03-01-2003 06:24									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse I'm sorry but that is complete bullshit. I don't think Speer has a strong bond with parents, but he is still very intelligent whether you agree with him on anything or not.

The statement of mine that you were quoting had nothing to do with your reply. I said I wanted to help teach my son things that I didn't learn, and you said you can be intelligent without a parental bond. You can still be intelligent without a strong parental bond, but it is much less likely. It doesn't necessarily have to be with the mother. I consider my strongest maternal bond to have been with my grandmother, my mother left when I was 1 1/2 years and came back two years later. She missed out on important developmental years, and I'm glad she did. My grandma was a much better parent.

quote: They wouldn't be necessarily taken away so much as never yours to begin with.

Whose are they then? Right after my son was born (btw, do you think they're not with you when you carry them in your womb for 9 months), I was separated from him for 4 hours. It was the first time he wasn't near me since he came into existence. I felt a very strong desire to be with him, to comfort him, to love him, and to feed him. I couldn't have denied that.

quote: Breast feeding isn't needed anyway. If anything, ending breast feeding will end freaks with lactation fetishes.

Breastfeeding has been shown time and again to increase IQ. Cow's milk is for calves (sp). Nature has a purpose for everything, and human milk is the single most perfect thing for infants to be eating.

You don't need to be breastfed to be a freak. And there are lots of breastfed people who are perfectly normal.