12-01-2003 07:26									#121
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I'm far enough along in my game to read through the thread. I'm playing the AU Mod on PTW, Emperor level. I'll have screenshots and a full AAR later.

I expanded peacefully as far as the gems to the SW and just north of the furs to the SE. China slipped in a city at the crux of the upside-down-Y; i.e., due south of Berlin, north of both the gems and the furs. Rome (of all people!) archer rushed me, but I saw it coming, and Rome has been OCCing it since the beginning. Like others' games, China and to a lesser degree Persia are big, bad AI civs; Babylon is strong but isolated. I'm just into the Industrial Age, part of an alliance against China consisting of Germany, Persia, Russia, and England.

Coupla' questions: (1) Is there something a bit screwy with the AU mod? I couldn't build the FP until darn near reaching the OCN as modified for difficulty -- a standard map on Emperor should generate an FP build on city 7 - I think I had 10 or 11 cities before the FP was an option (and I thought the OCN changes were supposed to be for the AI only); and (2) what's up with the resources? not only is there a ton of luxuries, but the strategics inhabit every other tile -- I've got like 5 coal (2 coals in adjacent tiles) and 4 or 5 iron within my borders, and I am number 4 or 5 on the "land area" demographic stats (and have no jungle for the coal!).

Catt

	12-01-2003 07:36									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Coupla' questions: (1) Is there something a bit screwy with the AU mod? I couldn't build the FP until darn near reaching the OCN as modified for difficulty -- a standard map on Emperor should generate an FP build on city 7 - I think I had 10 or 11 cities before the FP was an option (and I thought the OCN changes were supposed to be for the AI only);

The new number of cities required for the FP is 12 on a standard map. alexman can give you the full explanation (it's also in the PTW AU mod thread), but the net effect is that the OCN affects only the AI for corruption purposes, but both AI and human for FP purposes. The reasoning was that this was not such a big deal, because players rarely build their FP until they have around 12 cities anyway. This is kinda debatable, I think.

quote: Originally posted by Catt and (2) what's up with the resources? not only is there a ton of luxuries, but the strategics inhabit every other tile -- I've got like 5 coal (2 coals in adjacent tiles) and 4 or 5 iron within my borders, and I am number 4 or 5 on the "land area" demographic stats (and have no jungle for the coal!).

I know BRC (the one who set up this scenario) tweaked the map to make the game more interesting, challenging, and easy in the early game (all at the same time!). So there are are lot of luxuries and strategic resources to help out until Communism arrives. I think he did a pretty good job (keep playing, there's even a surprise!).


Dominae

	12-01-2003 07:52									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Catt China slipped in a city at the crux of the upside-down-Y; i.e., due south of Berlin, north of both the gems and the furs.

After posting, I realized that the above statement wasn't terribly clear.

Below is a screenshot showing the world as know at appox. 200 AD. Germany succeeded at building the Great Library (by design) in +/- 500 BC and then, with a lucky leader, rushed Sun Tzu's rather than build an army. I overlooked the fact that rushing Sun Tzu's would trigger a golden age (d'oh!) but was in a decent position to capitalize on it nonetheless - Germany was already a Republic and could make peace quite easily if infrastructure was the desired GA output.

And yes . . . given the rules of this AU course, the Chinese cities in "my territory" are a real pain .

Catt

	12-01-2003 08:14									#124
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quote: I know BRC (the one who set up this scenario) tweaked the map to make the game more interesting, challenging, and easy in the early game (all at the same time!). So there are are lot of luxuries and strategic resources to help out until Communism arrives. I think he did a pretty good job (keep playing, there's even a surprise!).

I was wondering if anyone had to deal with the "suprise".
Did it change anything for you Dom??

	12-01-2003 09:04									#125
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quote: Originally posted by BRC I was wondering if anyone had to deal with the "suprise". Did it change anything for you Dom??

Assuming we're talking about the same surprise, yes, it changed a lot. It made me think long and hard about my long-term strategy around the time when I was entertaining the idea of switching to Communism. This made the game all the more fun. Check out my AAR in a couple of days for the full story.

Catt, I'm sure that Chinese city will fall when the time is right (Communism beckons!).


Dominae

	12-01-2003 21:53									#126
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quote: Originally posted by BRC I was wondering if anyone had to deal with the "suprise".

I didn't. In this respect at least I was lucky.

	13-01-2003 01:27									#127
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I didn't too... The RNG has been kind with me... So I could proceed as expected: being crushed by an alliance of China, Russia, Babylon and Persia that is...

Communism in 1.29f really sucks. Once I switched to it, I immediately lost my tech lead and now China leads by 4-5 techs. I'm not generating enough income to trade for techs and I am not strong enough to beat someone for tech...

The end is near...

--Kon--

	13-01-2003 01:36									#128
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We may not all be talking about the same "surprise" here: mine begins with 'o' and ends with 'l' (I hope this doesn't ruin it for everyone, but this is the spoiler thread after all).




Dominae

	13-01-2003 01:43									#129
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quote: We may not all be talking about the same "surprise" here: mine begins with 'o' and ends with 'l' (I hope this doesn't ruin it for everyone, but this is the spoiler thread after all).

"i" thought that this was the only suprise. Are there others??

	13-01-2003 01:46									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae We may not all be talking about the same "surprise" here: mine begins with 'o' and ends with 'l' (I hope this doesn't ruin it for everyone, but this is the spoiler thread after all).

We are. I only know because Bluefrog mentioned it on page 3. Remember I had a considerable tech lag.

	13-01-2003 03:59									#131
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Persia is super aggressive in my game. They have declared war on me 3 times in the last 50 years or so.
Twice within 10 trurns

Anyway, they were able to capture one of my cities, but it flipped back.

Then Persia declared war on me again. But this time old Xerses realized Immortals and Knights don't do to well vs. Cavalry and Riflemen

	13-01-2003 06:23									#132
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In my version of this game, china cleared out england and left some oil sitting there for the taking. we sailed over and planted the flag. I've been doing everything but shine mao's shoes since 3000bc and he appears content to let me keep my oil.

meantime, it's persia and babs against china and germany (in golden age) in a huge modern era war. we are staying in democracy until the golden age is over. we are number one gnp and headed for a research lead. every turn we use arty to redline a fresh stack of persian tanks. must have had 50 elite victories without exaggeration. no leaders

	13-01-2003 07:39									#133
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I'll be clearer... 3 "surprises" appeared in my territory in the last 100 years or so... Sorry BRC... I'm still being crushed though. The panzer's blitz ability gives a lot of elites, but I had only one leader, out of 50-60 elite victories. Don't despair jshelr, there's still hope!

--Kon--

	13-01-2003 08:21									#134
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Man, all this bad leader luck, I sure am glad I got one in the Middle Ages.

	13-01-2003 16:44									#135
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My second game was lost as well. I think I have to focus more on building a preventive military force than expanding at fastest possible speed. My golden age did not help me much when I had 10 riders inside my borders, only 1-2 defenders per city, my only saltpeter pillaged and all knights killed.

A third game on the same map would not be that funny, now that I know the terrain and neighburs. Instead I'm playing another game on a huge map as the Americans. Got a golden age triggered by ToE, which helped me build Hoover and regain initiative in a bitter 3-front war I was struggling to control. Railroads+factories+Hoover+Golden Age+mobilization=

	13-01-2003 18:45									#136
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Olaf wrote, "My second game was lost as well. I think I have to focus more on building a preventive military force than expanding at fastest possible speed."

There is no one right way. But, given the unusual no-attack rules, I tried to grovel, pay all extortion demands, keep RoP's in place, make MPP pacts, buy tech, make deals that were good for the AI, and generally act like a wimp. It worked.

	13-01-2003 19:56									#137
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quote: Originally posted by BRC I was wondering if anyone had to deal with the "suprise".

I did.

I was going to panzer blitz and I even saved my GA for the occasion (well I didn't try to save it but being behind in tech and having no leaders hurt my Wonder building). After discovering refining I realized I needed a new plan. Actually I knew this was going to happen because its already been mentioned in the spoiler, but I forced myself to stick with the original plan.

Artillery, infantry, and left over upgraded calvary worked just fine.

	13-01-2003 20:05									#138
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr There is no one right way. But, given the unusual no-attack rules, I tried to grovel, pay all extortion demands, keep RoP's in place, make MPP pacts, buy tech, make deals that were good for the AI, and generally act like a wimp. It worked.

I went a slightly different route, and frankly, I'm surprised I stayed out of war until I was in Communism. I avoided ROPs unless I specifically wanted to aid the Chinese or Persians beat on each other, and I only signed one MPP the entire game. I did make deals that helped the AI, though, primarily luxury trades (for what the AI offered, not the max I could get).

I'll put up a full AAR in the next couple of days; few screenshots, but oh well. I just need to find some time to claim more Chinese territory, and I should have the Domination victory in hand. Never played Dom/Conquest, so it's a trip...I've got to be close to the required land mass. Persians? What Persians?

	13-01-2003 21:12									#139
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I started a massive build up of artillery and infantry. I was trying to decide in what order to attack when an opportunity presented itself. Persia and China declared war on each other. On the same turn huge armies from Persia and China entered German territory. After a few more turns their Calvary began a bloody battle in the heart of the German Y, while there massive infantry armies slowly marched toward each other. An evil plan began brewing in the mind of the German leader.

China was way to powerful for the small German nation, but Persia could be handled with a little help from some other nations. Germany and China signed an ROP. The floodgate was open and China was quick to use the new ROP. Chinese military units traveled quickly across German land and began attacking the Persian trespassers. After a few minutes of watching the battle I went and did some choices around the house. 10 minutes later I came back and found that all but 1 Persian unit was killed by the Chinese onslaught.

Germany now contacted its Russian neighbor for an ROP and alliance against Persia (so their ROP with Russia would be cancelled). Germany was able to take 5 Persian cities on the 1st turn. China and Russia razed a few on their turns and Persia’s fate was sealed. As the war waged on the Germany people became unhappy and the Germany leader made a terrifying discovery.

The ministry of Government Revolution was passed out drunk. The incompetent fool didn’t flip the revolution switch in the basement so Germany was still a Republic. He was executed for his failure but it was too late and the damage to great. The Germany leader was forced to retire in shame as the scandal brought his leadership to an end.

Cheating was frowned upon at Apolyton University and the price to pay was an “F” in BRC’s 203 course. Fortunately, expulsion from the University was avoided in this case. Since the cheating was accidental, well documented, and brought to the attention of the class by the cheater himself, Jawa was able to continue his academic career with only a black mark on his record.

	13-01-2003 21:58									#140
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quote: The ministry of Government Revolution was passed out drunk. The incompetent fool didn’t flip the revolution switch in the basement so Germany was still a Republic. He was executed for his failure but it was too late and the damage to great. The Germany leader was forced to retire in shame as the scandal brought his leadership to an end. Cheating was frowned upon at Apolyton University and the price to pay was an “F” in BRC’s 203 course. Fortunately, expulsion from the University was avoided in this case. Since the cheating was accidental, well documented, and brought to the attention of the class by the cheater himself, Jawa was able to continue his academic career with only a black mark on his record.

Don't worry. No black mark. You executed him. I raise your grade to a "D" and encourage you to tell us what would have happened.

It was still a good game.


-----------------------Spoiler Info-----------------------------------

The island directly east of the start location (probably claimed by Babylon), should have all the rubber and all the oil you would need. I was wondering if anyone made an assault on this with Infantry and Artillery, so that they could build Panzers by the time they had Motorized Transportation.

	13-01-2003 21:59									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky As the war waged on the Germany people became unhappy and the Germany leader made a terrifying discovery.

Oops! I almost did this myself: I had all my Artillery lined up to bombard the heck out of the nearest Persian town when I remembered the course rules, and had to order them back home.

Jawa, if you have the saves from the previous turns, I'm sure there's no harm in going back and waiting for Communism to unleash your fury (although the timing might off at that point). You haven't learned anything about Communism yet!


Dominae

	13-01-2003 22:05									#142
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quote: Originally posted by BRC The island directly east of the start location (probably claimed by Babylon), should have all the rubber and all the oil you would need. I was wondering if anyone made an assault on this with Infantry and Artillery, so that they could build Panzers by the time they had Motorized Transportation.

This was my plan 'A', until I realised that the Babs were worth more to me alive than dead: I was trading for two of their luxuries, and was getting around 300gpt for techs. No need to ruin a healthy trading relationship when other sources of Oil abound in enemy lands. The clincher is that I think Domination is triggered by controlling the entire big island alone. Thus a war with the Babs is ultimately unecessary.

So I concocted plans 'B' and 'C', and waited.

Again, great map for this scenario.


Dominae

	13-01-2003 22:16									#143
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quote: Originally posted by BRC I encourage you to tell us what would have happened. -----------------------Spoiler Info----------------------------------- The island directly east of the start location (probably claimed by Babylon), should have all the rubber and all the oil you would need. I was wondering if anyone made an assault on this with Infantry and Artillery, so that they could build Panzers by the time they had Motorized Transportation.

I had a lot of rubber so I was only short on oil. Persia took that island from Babylon and I was currently fighting a land war with Persia. Once the land war was finished I was going to use the units to take the island and get oil about the same time I discover MT.

I would have taken out Russia with Panzers and used the GA to build a massive army. Then an enormous ROP violation with China would cripple the Chinese and the rest would be a mop-up operation.

	13-01-2003 22:17									#144
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quote: Originally posted by BRC -----------------------Spoiler Info----------------------------------- The island directly east of the start location (probably claimed by Babylon), should have all the rubber and all the oil you would need. I was wondering if anyone made an assault on this with Infantry and Artillery, so that they could build Panzers by the time they had Motorized Transportation.

Apparently you didn't read my earlier posts. Harumph!

Hee. I didn't use arty, but I swarmed that arctic rock with Infantry and a few Cavalry. The Babs had 4 coastal cities there, which fell to me, and later it was used as a staging point for warfare on the Babylonian mainland.

A question, though...what square mileage do we need for a domination victory on this size of a map? I've got to be close.

	13-01-2003 22:28									#145
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quote: Originally posted by BRC The island directly east of the start location (probably claimed by Babylon), should have all the rubber and all the oil you would need. I was wondering if anyone made an assault on this with Infantry and Artillery, so that they could build Panzers by the time they had Motorized Transportation.

In practice, you can either:

A) settle peacfully the oil across the inland sea when either Russia or England is conquered and so their former cities cultural borders are reduced.

B)Build up a cash reserve and discover (or buy,steal) Combustion, Mass Production and Motorised Transportation in 9 turns and so get 11 turns of Panzer building for your territory map.

I would not have chosen Germany for this scenario precisely because they might be too tempted to wait for Motorised Transportation before fighting (and so stay in Democracy.)

	13-01-2003 22:37									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me I would not have chosen Germany for this scenario precisely because they might be too tempted to wait for Motorised Transportation before fighting (and so stay in Democracy.)

I would like to point out that Oil appears on the map far before Motorized Transportation is available. This leaves a lot of time to switch to Communism and secure a source. The fact that this reduces your research rate makes the decision all the more interesting. I debated long and hard precisely when to switch to Communism, and enjoyed it (as much as one can enjoy debates with oneself).


Dominae

	13-01-2003 22:46									#147
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quote: Apparently you didn't read my earlier posts. Harumph!

Sorry Bluefrog... I could have sworn that I had read every post here. Don't know how I missed that one. My apologies.

quote: A question, though...what square mileage do we need for a domination victory on this size of a map? I've got to be close.

I have no idea, but Dominae says that the big island is enough.

I'm glad that most everyone enjoyed this game. Who out there still has write-ups left?

BTW: How do you get "Originally posted by ____" to appear at the top of quotes?? Thanks.

	13-01-2003 22:54									#148
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quote: Originally posted by BRC Sorry Bluefrog... I could have sworn that I had read every post here. Don't know how I missed that one. My apologies. I have no idea, but Dominae says that the big island is enough. I'm glad that most everyone enjoyed this game. Who out there still has write-ups left? BTW: How do you get "Originally posted by ____" to appear at the top of quotes?? Thanks.

No worries, BRC, hehe. I like to pretend-whine sometimes.

As for the "Originally posted by," I just click the "reply with quote" option on the message I want to quote.

	13-01-2003 22:58									#149
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quote: Originally posted by BRC I'm glad that most everyone enjoyed this game. Who out there still has write-ups left?

Almost everyone, I should think; I've only read around 3 complete AARs so far.

As for winning by Domination, I'm not 100% sure it happens when you control the big continent. I really do hope I'm right, though.


Dominae

	13-01-2003 23:41									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Bluefrog No worries, BRC, hehe. I like to pretend-whine sometimes. As for the "Originally posted by," I just click the "reply with quote" option on the message I want to quote.

I understand. Sorry about that. Thanks for the help, too.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Almost everyone, I should think; I've only read around 3 complete AARs so far.

I know. I think that some people are scared. I was for the longest time. I didn't start posting until I could play Monarch.
HEY!! IF YOU PLAYED CHIEFTAIN, I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT.