06-01-2003 14:19									#31
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Too late ...

In the same turn, Lux lost probably a city, whereas ND and GoW had one more. Has the war started ?

Without contact with Lux in the game, which would make possible soon a tech deal, we should delayed the negociation of any treaty until the picture is clear.

	06-01-2003 21:41									#32
	Alliance Between The Ottomans (Lux Invicta) and The Spanish (Roleplay) Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

How about....
********

Trip, Administrator Lux Invicta and Supreme Leader of the Ottomans; and Togas, Supreme Leader of the Spanish (Roleplay) do hereby agree to the following, which is binding upon the Ottomans (Lux Invicta) and the Spanish (Roleplay) Civilizations in the World (PTW Demo Game). Henceforth: any reference to the Ottomans infers Lux Invicta and reference to Spain or España infers Roleplay.

Preamble:

The Ottomans and The People of Spain do hereby commit in writing to their immense trust and respect for each other. Their friendship knows no bounds, and is unrivaled in the world. May the Great Spirits of the World, bless and preserve the Great People of these two Great Civilizations. Furthermore, Mano a Mano, the Great Leaders, Trip and Togas, do set an example to all their people, and hail each other as loyal and supportive friends by signing this Alliance.

I. This document will expire in 20 game turns from its effective time. This needs to be finalized at time of signing

II. The Ottomans and the Spanish do hereby agree to never declare war on or invade the other in a hostile manner.

III. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree to never ally, plot, conspire, assist, etc., with other Civilizations against the other in a hostile manner.

IV. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any defensive war initiated by another aggressive civilization is to trigger the Alliance, and the non-warring Ally agrees to assist the warring Ally, so long as the war would not cause undue, unnecessary and irreversible harm to the non-warring Ally.

V. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any aggressive war started by one of the them is not a trigger to the Alliance; unless the Allies agree beforehand to the aggressive war. Such approval must be sought by the Invading Ally at least 5 turns prior to a declaration of war.

VI. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that each Ally in this Alliance is entitled to keep any Spoils of War it may control.

VII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that neither Ally may enter into an Alliance with another civilization without prior approval by the non-allying Ally.

VIII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree not to invade an ally of one of the Allies to this Alliance, who met the approval in VII. above.

XI. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any violation of this agreement by either Ally will null and void the Alliance.

This is the Word of the Ottomans and Spanish and it is their Law. Long live the Great Civilizations of the Ottomans and Spanish and let no man tear them asunder.


******

Comments and suggestions are always welcome. I will fix any grammar, spelling, etc. prior to PM to Trip.

	06-01-2003 21:50									#33
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Dont we offer some hostages as a guarantee ? I have a list ...

	06-01-2003 22:33									#34
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Why are we agreeing to an Alliance with Lux? Most of our diplomatic problems have had them at the root and they seem to be the weakest of the Four Corner Civilizations (kinda catchy isn't it?).

I see no great hostile threat that should force us to sign an alliance as we currently seem to be doing fine at holding GoW in check and spinning ND from our heartland.

	06-01-2003 22:43									#35
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jdjdjd,

Article 7 requires that we read the treaty if we are to give prior approval; practically it means that we are party at the treaty. Without reading the treaty I would never give my approval.

	06-01-2003 23:58									#36
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Thats why I put it like that DAVOUT. It says we must give prior approval, and we could say we will not give prior approval unless we see the Treaty. Then if they say, no we do not want to show you the treaty, then we say no to their alliance. If they enter it anyway, they have violated the treaty and cancel our Alliance with them.

Thrumble, we are agreeing to an alliance because it is the will of Lord Togas. He explains himself above and further in the Diplomacy thread.

	07-01-2003 00:17									#37
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Looks good, jd.

Edits in bold.

I. This document will expire in 20 game turns from its effective time if it is not reaffirmed for another 20 turns by both nations.

IV. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any defensive war initiated by another aggressive civilization is to trigger the Alliance, and the non-warring Ally agrees to assist the warring Ally in their defense in a reasonable and immediate mannor.

Strike Art VII entirely.

VIII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree not to invade an ally of one of the Allies to this Alliance.

Add in a clause that states that we will both keep this alliance a secret for the duration of the alliance so as to not frighten our neighbors and convince them to ally against us.


As to why we're signing this agreement, why not? This greatly reduces the chances that Lux will be hostile towards us, does not drag us into war unless Lux is surprised and even if they are surprised, we only have to act in a reasonable fashion ... to send what free troops we have to harass the nations that will benefit from Lux's demise.

Frankly, we should seek agreements with ND and GoW as well. We will only prosper from a long period of early peace, as our nation's traits are geared towards more peaceful victories. Furthermore, when war happens, we want to have some friends and some assurances that we the added power to survive it.

So long as I am despot, Spain will be an active and aggressive diplomatic nation forging relationships with any and all nations of the world. We will strive to control the world around us by our agrements and by manipulating the politics of the region.

--Togas

	07-01-2003 00:50									#38
	Revised Put an end to popups!

Here are the revisions requested.

*****

Trip, Administrator Lux Invicta and Supreme Leader of the Ottomans; and Togas, Supreme Leader of the Spanish (Roleplay) do hereby agree to the following, which is binding upon the Ottomans (Lux Invicta) and the Spanish (Roleplay) Civilizations in the World (PTW Demo Game). Henceforth: any reference to the Ottomans infers Lux Invicta and reference to Spain or España infers Roleplay.

Preamble:

The Ottomans and The People of Spain do hereby commit in writing to their immense trust and respect for each other. Their friendship knows no bounds, and is unrivaled in the world. May the Great Spirits of the World, bless and preserve the Great People of these two Great Civilizations. Furthermore, Mano a Mano, the Great Leaders, Trip and Togas, do set an example to all their people, and hail each other as loyal and supportive friends by signing this Alliance.

I. This document will expire in 20 game turns from its effective time if it is not reaffirmed for another 20 turns by both nations.

II. The Ottomans and the Spanish do hereby agree to never declare war on or invade the other in a hostile manner.

III. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree to never ally, plot, conspire, assist, etc., with other Civilizations against the other in a hostile manner.

IV. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any defensive war initiated by another aggressive civilization is to trigger the Alliance, and the non-warring Ally agrees to assist the warring Ally in their defense in a reasonable and immediate manner.

V. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any aggressive war started by one of the them is not a trigger to the Alliance; unless the Allies agree beforehand to the aggressive war. Such approval must be sought by the Invading Ally at least 5 turns prior to a declaration of war.

VI. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that each Ally in this Alliance is entitled to keep any Spoils of War it may control.

VII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree not to invade an ally of one of the Allies to this Alliance.

VIII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any violation of this agreement by either Ally will null and void the Alliance.

XI. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that this Alliance will remain a secret from the other civilizations so as to not frighten then and convince them to ally against us.

This is the Word of the Ottomans and Spanish and it is their Law. Long live the Great Civilizations of the Ottomans and Spanish and let no man tear them asunder.


******

Again, any suggestions or comments - or in the alternative, the approval of Our Supreme Leader.

P.S. What is this "while I am despot"? That implies there is a time when you will not be despot - certainly the spirits would never let that happen.

	07-01-2003 01:50									#39
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Senor jdjdjd,

As there are always Young Hot Heads who feel that our Lord Togas might not be guiding our Great Nation in the Proper Mannor, there is always the Danger of them Disposing his Rule. We all hope that that will never happen, but the possibility IS still there.

As for the Alliance Agreement, I support it. The Document is a masterpiece, Senor jdjdjd. Especially with Lord Togas's additions.

Letus Eta Tamali

	07-01-2003 02:38									#40
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quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd Here are the revisions requested. ***** P.S. What is this "while I am despot"? That implies there is a time when you will not be despot - .

jdjdjd, it did not occur to you that Togas would like to start roleplaying at last.

	07-01-2003 03:14									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT jdjdjd, it did not occur to you that Togas would like to start roleplaying at last.

May the reign of my family over Spain last until the end of times ... or until you guys force me to switch to a lousey democracy.

--Togas

	07-01-2003 03:28									#42
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The Togas family have been enlightened and benevolent in their ruling of Spain throughout the centuries, and will be for many, many more.

Anyone silly enough to plan a coup against the Togas line is forewarned that they should also plan to eliminate every last Dejon as well, lest they wish us to seek revenge on our Lord's behalf.

	07-01-2003 04:10									#43
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Please, señor Jdjdjd, señor Tamali and señor Torquemada, let us enjoy the peace of the Age of Stability as this time perhaps shall be remembered. There is no need to bother ourselves with thoughts about evil future scenario's.

Aidun Cian

Last edited by Aidun on 07-01-2003 at 04:15

	07-01-2003 05:40									#44
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The agreement looks good... the "Mano a Mano" line is perhaps one flourish too many

However, I would like to state for the record that I think a treaty like this is a mistake. Lux is the weakest nation in the game per the score; the predators see them limping right now. I think Lux is gonna be on our necks soon enough to assist them in aggression against neighbors of ours that will probably be around longer than Lux will.

Lux will be able to show this off as proof of any waffling on the issue or backing out of backing them up we may do. They are gonna frame this and show it to anyone we don't declare war in defense of them. I think military assistance should be removed completely from the pact.

	07-01-2003 06:29									#45
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r_m I did overplay it - one person had suggested we overplay it to look like guys just goofing around and not true gamers.

I too was opposed to any such entanglements, but it is to be. I wrote with it in mind that I would try to keep us as free from intertwinement as much as possible and leave us a way out if possible.

	07-01-2003 06:37									#46
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If this new development in Diplomacy is what it genuinely appears to be, a Warmonger plot against us, Neu Demogyptica, and Lux Invicta, an alliance with the Lux Invictans is inevitable.

	07-01-2003 12:19									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun Please, señor Jdjdjd, señor Tamali and señor Torquemada, let us enjoy the peace of the Age of Stability as this time perhaps shall be remembered. There is no need to bother ourselves with thoughts about evil future scenario's. Aidun Cian

What make you think that Togas starting roleplaying would be evil ?

	07-01-2003 18:58									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT What make you think that Togas starting roleplaying would be evil ?

DAVOUT - Have you seen Togas roleplay?


On a serious note, please let me know when and if the proposed alliance above is acceptable. And I will forward to Trip and Togas for approval.

	07-01-2003 20:35									#49
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Just a few things.

Article IV :
Although it is almost impossible to change a coma to such a masterpiece of diplomatic subtleties, I wonder what could be the form of a defensive war initiated by an aggressor

Article V. :
After the sentence * unless the Allies agree beforehand to the aggressive war*, I suggest to add : *in a separate treaty*. This peaceful treaty should not result in a war machine.
And the last sentence could be deleted.

Articles VII and XI :
I find a sort of contradiction between these two articles; keeping secret a protection given to third parties could lead to unpleasant situations. Again, I would prefer this treaty to be opened to others.

Articles IX and X :
They seem secret, so I refrain to comment.

	07-01-2003 21:06									#50
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I like DAVOUT's suggestion re: Article V, and I have edited that Article.

I am unsure what the contradiction between VII & IX is - in VII we agree not to attack their allies. in IX we agree not to tell other civs of this alliance. This can be done.

And, as for Article IV, that is from the mouth of our Supreme Leader and so I, his humble servant, can not and will not amend its content. At this point in time in the Game, a defensive war could only be seen as military war. No economic war is yet possible.

****

Trip, Administrator Lux Invicta and Supreme Leader of the Ottomans; and Togas, Supreme Leader of the Spanish (Roleplay) do hereby agree to the following, which is binding upon the Ottomans (Lux Invicta) and the Spanish (Roleplay) Civilizations in the World (PTW Demo Game). Henceforth: any reference to the Ottomans infers Lux Invicta and reference to Spain or España infers Roleplay.

Preamble:

The Ottomans and The People of Spain do hereby commit in writing to their immense trust and respect for each other. Their friendship knows no bounds, and is unrivaled in the world. May the Great Spirits of the World, bless and preserve the Great People of these two Great Civilizations. Furthermore, Mano a Mano, the Great Leaders, Trip and Togas, do set an example to all their people, and hail each other as loyal and supportive friends by signing this Alliance.

I. This document will expire in 20 game turns from its effective time if it is not reaffirmed for another 20 turns by both nations.

II. The Ottomans and the Spanish do hereby agree to never declare war on or invade the other in a hostile manner.

III. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree to never ally, plot, conspire, assist, etc., with other Civilizations against the other in a hostile manner.

IV. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any defensive war initiated by another aggressive civilization is to trigger the Alliance, and the non-warring Ally agrees to assist the warring Ally in their defense in a reasonable and immediate manner.

V. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any aggressive war started by one of the them is not a trigger to the Alliance. Any such aggressive war alliance would need to be in a separate treaty.

VI. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that each Ally in this Alliance is entitled to keep any Spoils of War it may control.

VII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree not to invade an ally of one of the Allies to this Alliance.

VIII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any violation of this agreement by either Ally will null and void the Alliance.

IX. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that this Alliance will remain a secret from the other civilizations so as to not frighten them and convince them to ally against us.

This is the Word of the Ottomans and Spanish and it is their Law. Long live the Great Civilizations of the Ottomans and Spanish and let no man tear them asunder.


****

Again, any comments, or additions. And I await our Leaders OK, or additional edits.

	07-01-2003 21:37									#51
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quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd I am unsure what the contradiction between VII & IX is - in VII we agree not to attack their allies. in IX we agree not to tell other civs of this alliance. This can be done.

This can be written, but it cant be done.

In this secret alliance, Lux commits herself not to attack our allies.
Then we make the same kind of secret alliance with ND.
Then Lux not knowing this alliance attacks ND. Such an attack could not cause the end of the first alliance with them, since Lux was not aware of it, and the commitment is worthless. As a consequence, this clause, if we want it, should be excluded from the secret, but then the secret has no content.


PS : I just insist, not by natural stubborness, not for diplomatic reasons, but just in defense of the logic which could be used against us.

	07-01-2003 21:59									#52
	Full PM-box? Change here!

For practical purposes, let's make these changes:

VII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree not to invade a known ally of one of the Allies to this Alliance.

IX. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that this Alliance will remain a secret from the other civilizations so as to not frighten them and convince them to ally against us. Should one of the parties wish to reveal the alliance, he must first seek permission of the other party.


That should fix the dual secret alliance problems, if any were to present themself. In truth, before Lux could attack our "ally" ... secret or not, they'd have to consult with us and get a separate agreement, so we'd have control over getting into such a fight.

--Togas

	08-01-2003 00:32									#53
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It is done - may I send?

****

Trip, Administrator Lux Invicta and Supreme Leader of the Ottomans; and Togas, Supreme Leader of the Spanish (Roleplay) do hereby agree to the following, which is binding upon the Ottomans (Lux Invicta) and the Spanish (Roleplay) Civilizations in the World (PTW Demo Game). Henceforth: any reference to the Ottomans infers Lux Invicta and reference to Spain or España infers Roleplay.

Preamble:

The Ottomans and The People of Spain do hereby commit in writing to their immense trust and respect for each other. Their friendship knows no bounds, and is unrivaled in the world. May the Great Spirits of the World, bless and preserve the Great People of these two Great Civilizations. Furthermore, Mano a Mano, the Great Leaders, Trip and Togas, do set an example to all their people, and hail each other as loyal and supportive friends by signing this Alliance.

I. This document will expire in 20 game turns from its effective time if it is not reaffirmed for another 20 turns by both nations.

II. The Ottomans and the Spanish do hereby agree to never declare war on or invade the other in a hostile manner.

III. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree to never ally, plot, conspire, assist, etc., with other Civilizations against the other in a hostile manner.

IV. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any defensive war initiated by another aggressive civilization is to trigger the Alliance, and the non-warring Ally agrees to assist the warring Ally in their defense in a reasonable and immediate manner.

V. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any aggressive war started by one of the them is not a trigger to the Alliance. Any such aggressive war alliance would need to be in a separate treaty.

VI. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that each Ally in this Alliance is entitled to keep any Spoils of War it may control.

VII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree not to invade a known ally of one of the Allies to this Alliance.

VIII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any violation of this agreement by either Ally will null and void the Alliance.

IX. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that this Alliance will remain a secret from the other civilizations so as to not frighten them and convince them to ally against us. Should one of the parties wish to reveal the alliance, he must first seek permission of the other party.

This is the Word of the Ottomans and Spanish and it is their Law. Long live the Great Civilizations of the Ottomans and Spanish and let no man tear them asunder.



****

	08-01-2003 00:37									#54
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Yes. Let's send it and see what their reply is.

Good work, Jd.

--Togas

	08-01-2003 01:14									#55
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I have sent it to both Esteemed Leaders, so that each can reply that it is agreeable and attach that to the Alliance.

Unfortunately, Trip's PM box is full - we will have to wait till he clears it.