10-01-2003 10:43									#61
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What really pisses me off, is that communism has never been given a valid "field test", America always seems to go out of it's way to mess up any chance communism ever had. Can you name a communist country that has existed that America did not attack, sanction, etc?

	10-01-2003 10:44									#62
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Well when just about all of them have as their goal the destruction of capitalism and capitalist states, can you blame the US?

	10-01-2003 10:47									#63
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quote: I'd say true communism has never existed except on small scale 'utopias'

While not communism, socialism has worked on the very small scale (in the hundreds to a few thousand) in kbbutzim - but those are carefully maintaied (ie, entering individuals are screen to make sure they agree with the principles of the kibbutz and are willing to work for the community). In addition, these tend to work in conjunction with a certain amount of capatalism (ie, sell the goods it makes to the community outside the kibbutz), so it's not true socialism (but worth mentioning)

	10-01-2003 10:47									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well when just about all of them have as their goal the destruction of capitalism and capitalist states, can you blame the US?

Yeah, because 1) not all have those goals and 2) the US explicitly stated its goal as the containment of communism. In no way can you say that the US was acting "defensively" in every situation.

	10-01-2003 10:49									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well when just about all of them have as their goal the destruction of capitalism and capitalist states, can you blame the US?

does cuba really pose such a threat today, in all honesty? do we still have to supress what could eb a beautiful sociocultural revoluition?

i'd say korea or nam and the wars, but that was cold war-ish. we were afraid then.

	10-01-2003 10:55									#66
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quote: Yeah, because 1) not all have those goals and 2) the US explicitly stated its goal as the containment of communism. In no way can you say that the US was acting "defensively" in every situation.

If they didn't have those goals then they weren't communist.

The US was basically acting defensive, when a group wants to destroy you, and you attempt to subvert them you are taking preemptive action. I support all the actions against Communist countries carried out by the US.

	10-01-2003 11:16									#67
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Capitalism was never given a "valid field test" either. But capitalism is working a lot better, on average, than communism.

	10-01-2003 11:20									#68
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Capitalism was never given a "valid field test" either. But capitalism is working a lot better, on average, than communism.

how do you figure?

capitialism is considered the dominant economic force in the world, it has basis in our biology / evolution, and it thrives on greed. as far as i can see, capitialism has been given a "valid field test", or at the very least, a much more hospitible one than that of communism.

	10-01-2003 11:26									#69
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Capitalism grew out of an inhospitable feudal system. It has weathered revolutions, Depressions, and various sane and insane leaders. And if communism hasn't been giving a fair test because capitalism was trying to undermine it, then the reverse applies too.

Hence it is capitalism that has "out-evolved" all the other systems, and continues to thrive today.

	10-01-2003 11:44									#70
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Capitalism grew out of an inhospitable feudal system. It has weathered revolutions, Depressions, and various sane and insane leaders. And if communism hasn't been giving a fair test because capitalism was trying to undermine it, then the reverse applies too. Hence it is capitalism that has "out-evolved" all the other systems, and continues to thrive today.

but communism wasn't the norm undermining the revolutionary. when the major world powers are capitialist, and most of them go out of their way to screw up communist states, it's certainly not fair.

i just laughed in my head because that statement sounds like i think some form of international politics is fair

	10-01-2003 20:12									#71
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Masses of people was not sufficient, as the examples of India and China show.

And General Winter too, of course.

	10-01-2003 20:17									#72
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Capitalism grew out of an inhospitable feudal system. It has weathered revolutions, Depressions, and various sane and insane leaders. And if communism hasn't been giving a fair test because capitalism was trying to undermine it, then the reverse applies too. Hence it is capitalism that has "out-evolved" all the other systems, and continues to thrive today.

In what sense? Really there is no pure capitalism per se in operation. In fact, some European countries are highly socialistic.

Without socialistic measures, there wouldn't be a single "capitalistic" country now. So in essence, socialism won out, by subverting capitalism.

	10-01-2003 20:23									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger In what sense? Really there is no pure capitalism per se in operation. In fact, some European countries are highly socialistic. Without socialistic measures, there wouldn't be a single "capitalistic" country now. So in essence, socialism won out, by subverting capitalism.

That's sad.

	12-01-2003 04:08									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Graag I dislike quoting myself, but I would very much like to hear a communists comment on this.

You could very well be right here Graag. That doesn't, however, make the Commie movement worthless. Quite on the contrary, we are providing people with information that can help more people reach this higher stage of evolution in a more timely manner.

	12-01-2003 05:23									#75
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just thought i'd slap this in here for kicks.

it was well-conceived in theory but it doesn't work in life.
comrade has to wonder, is it ever worth the effort?
well i don't know but i've been told not to hang on to my hope.
i don't know but i've been told and i've been listening all my life.
if you're ever less than certain about the world,
please don't let the worry make its way into your work.
and if you would stick up for me in the face of some adversity,
know that i would only do the same.
'cause it was well-conceived in theory but it doesn't work in life.
but me i will not write it off not ever having tried.
well i don't know but i've been told not to hang on to my hope;
well i don't know but i've been told but these are lies and they get old.
look me in the eyes underexpanding winter skies
you'll find a feeling there that never knows the cold...
look me in the eyes and the skeptic in me dies -
the skeptic is a fool, we are exceptions to the rule,
'cause this is our land, this is our land, i will cross it holding your hand;
from krasnayarsk to moscow we will not be turned away;
this is our land this is our land i will cross it holding your hand -
in the crooked streets of petersburg, we are all the same.
if you're ever less than certain about the world,
please don't let the worry make its way into your work;
and if you would stick up for me in the face of great adversity,
know that i would do the same, know we are the same.
if you would stick up for me speak kindly and poetically;
you can be my personal ambassador to the world.
and if you're ever less than certain, i will be your iron curtain,
i will be your berlin wall, and i will never fall.
-Soltero: Communist Love Song