14-01-2003 00:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me SDI? You won't need it if you've already won.

NMD, SDI; ok, I admit, I have no clue what we're talking about. Probably some tech or improvement in the Modern age is my guess.


Dominae

	14-01-2003 01:09									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Different but related topic: Playing AU203, it is surprising to see how weak poprushing is under Communism compared to Despotism. Since all your cities are mildly productive under Communism, you always want your cities to stay big in order to get a chance at a few extra Shields. Poprushing works against this. Most small improvements can be completed in a normal amount of turns (8-10 turns for a Library in a captured city, etc.), so poprushing those seems a waste. But the big improvements (Factories, especially) cost so many Shields that you'll never "rush" them in a reasonable timeframe. For real rushing, Gold is far better in the later eras. Currently in AU203, I'm stuck at around 8000 Gold after MA upgrades, and I have nothing to do with it!

**** Warning -- Mild AU 203 SPOILER info ****

I agree completely -- but I think this is partly due to the AU Mod. I laboriously built courthouses and police stations in my core before switching to Communism, having been burned and surprised before by the communal corruption under communism. Upon the switch I found I have almost no corruption, anywhere. After taking a big chunk of China, I still have very, very little corruption. Under stock rules, taking over large cities and even metros under communism makes poprushing more appropriate under communism, particularly when a switch back out of communism is anticipated -- combining a rushed temple and/or one more improvement while simultaneously reducing the number of foreigners (flips) can be useful -- Theseus dsiplayed a nice use for it in one of the earlier AU games -- it was recently replayed with PTW civs. At some point (will it come in AU 203?) holding enemy cities under a communist government, if a switch back to the "core concept" governments isn't anticipated, is more harmful than helpful -- it adds to the corruption in the core without providing much help elsewhere. Under the current AU Mod, I have sometimes pop-rushed a library for border expansion - but otherwise pop is just too powerful to be used for rushing.

Catt

PS - SDI is the strategic defense initiative - a small wonder that comes from the very last tech in the Modern Age and allows for limited nuclear missle defense -- it gives a 75% chance of intercepting enemy nuclear missles. Unless you have played through the modern age (i.e., with victory conditions disabled or past the win point) there is no reason you would ever have become familiar with it.

	14-01-2003 01:12									#33
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I too am more of a "feel" rusher. Perhaps a deficiency in my game, but I've never really thought long and hard about the best uses for rushing. I often rush-buy temples or libraries on conquests. I often rush marketplaces at any time. I sometimes rush factories a bit, like Dominae, though not usually - but I might rush a factory and coal plant in a city or two specifically for ToE and Hoover. Definitley more of a gut feeling and a "I've got the cash; I think I'll rush XYZ" than a carefully considered tactical plan.

Catt

	14-01-2003 01:22									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Catt but I think this is partly due to the AU Mod.

Now that you mention it, this makes more sense to me. Communism is now a lot better than it used to be (see below), but the unfortunate side-effect is that poprushing is left undesirable.

quote: I laboriously built courthouses and police stations in my core before switching to Communism, having been burned and surprised before by the communal corruption under communism. Upon the switch I found I have almost no corruption, anywhere.

Same here, minus the Police Stations. When I finish my AAR, I'll post a comparison of my civ before and after the government switch. The new Communism is noticeably better.

quote: At some point (will it come in AU 203?) holding enemy cities under a communist government, if a switch back to the "core concept" governments isn't anticipated, is more harmful than helpful -- it adds to the corruption in the core without providing much help elsewhere. Under the current AU Mod, I have sometimes pop-rushed a library for border expansion - but otherwise pop is just too powerful to be used for rushing.

Currently, I control all of the main continent south of the Chinese isthmus (where all the Ivory is). My core cities are producing on average 50 Shields per turn, and the smaller ex-Pesian ones are at around 15-20. This alone makes the AU Communism by far the best choice for warfare in the late-game. Yay!

quote: PS - SDI is the strategic defense initiative

Thanks. The few games where I've reached the Modern age I was too focused on the SS to even look at the military toys. In AU203, the game will be over when I reach Stealth, only 4 techs into the Modern age. Too bad.

Now, what about NMD? (Sorry, but I had a hard time remembering what the SDI was without the abbreviation!)


Dominae

	14-01-2003 01:54									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Currently, I control all of the main continent south of the Chinese isthmus (where all the Ivory is). My core cities are producing on average 50 Shields per turn, and the smaller ex-Pesian ones are at around 15-20. This alone makes the AU Communism by far the best choice for warfare in the late-game. Yay!

AU 203 Spoiler Below

Ain't that the truth. My original core is producing 60 - 90 shields each, with my Iron Works city over a 100 shields. I think I am losing 4 shields there due to corruption and only 2 or three shields elsewhere (and I control Resource Island, "my" territory to the southeast only to the furs, all of former England, and more than half of the Chinese lands east of the chokepoint between China and the former Aztecs). When I captured Beijing, it was producing +/- 30 net shields with a pop of 12 and no factory! I rushed a factory and it built a cathedral in 3 turns without rushing! The AU Mod's communism (and I think the OCN change) is very powerful.

quote: Now, what about NMD? (Sorry, but I had a hard time remembering what the SDI was without the abbreviation!)

I think NMD is an alternative "name" for the SDI wonder -- I'm guessing it is Nuclear Missle Defense, and the acronym is the invention of a poster or is the actual name of the wonder in non-US versions of the game.

Catt

	14-01-2003 02:40									#36
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Sorry for continuing off-topic, but Catt, as I said in the spoiler thread, I am amazed to see your really high city spacing. You have relatively few cities for the land area of your empire. Those are the conditions where the communal corruption model shines. In my game, I immediately started razing cities instead of keeping them because I wanted to still be able to produce a 100-shield Panzer in two turns in my core (and because I have not been building happiness improvements, so my clulture is bad, but that's another issue).

[BTW the OCN change in the AU mod does not affect corruption. The only effect is to the # of cities you need to build your FP]

	14-01-2003 02:45									#37
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NMD: "National Missle Defense" - Bush's term for the current "Star Wars" (the nickname of SDI back in the 80s).

BetaHound,

I'll have a look at the thread... and though I make no promises, I'm reasonably certain I'll be interested in the inter-civsite game.

-Arrian

	14-01-2003 02:52									#38
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

alexman, I used a 3-city spacing, and my core cities are still producing Panzers in 2-3 turns (my Iron Works city just lost the "sweet spot" 100 production a couple of turns, uh, conquered cities ago). The effect of almost doubling the number cities under Communism is now barely significant.


Dominae

	14-01-2003 03:15									#39
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Sorry for continuing off-topic, but Catt, as I said in the spoiler thread, I am amazed to see your really high city spacing. You have relatively few cities for the land area of your empire. Those are the conditions where the communal corruption model shines. In my game, I immediately started razing cities instead of keeping them because I wanted to still be able to produce a 100-shield Panzer in two turns in my core (and because I have not been building happiness improvements, so my clulture is bad, but that's another issue). [BTW the OCN change in the AU mod does not affect corruption. The only effect is to the # of cities you need to build your FP]

quote: Originally posted by Dominae alexman, I used a 3-city spacing, and my core cities are still producing Panzers in 2-3 turns (my Iron Works city just lost the "sweet spot" 100 production a couple of turns, uh, conquered cities ago). The effect of almost doubling the number cities under Communism is now barely significant.

May I invite you both back to the spoiler thread? Since I just posted there referring alexman to this thread only to find he was already here.

	14-01-2003 03:21									#40
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I'm the one to blame for this blatant thread-jacking: I just wanted to post some comments on poprushing and Communism, and the conversation blossomed into a AU debate. At least I was on-topic in the first place!

Another (on-topic) topic: someone mentioned the benefits of Longevity and Communism. Discounting any production due to Laborers, 1 pop = 40 Shields. Not bad. Any further thoughts?


Dominae

	14-01-2003 03:27									#41
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That's a good point. And with a Granary, 80 shields!

Of course, that's still the same pop needed for drafting 4 110-shield Mech. Infantry units, which become 108 shields (in any government).

	14-01-2003 03:35									#42
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Is the unhappiness caused by poprushing and drafting the same? From a Shield perspective, clearly draft is better (not to mention that you can draft, attack and disband); what about the disadvantages?


Dominae

	14-01-2003 03:38									#43
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Unhappiness is the same, but editable.
Hmmm... maybe an idea for a mod!

	14-01-2003 16:20									#44
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There is only one disadvantage to drafting, the fact that the unit start out with less HP.

	14-01-2003 21:28									#45
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That's one of them, the other is an extra unhappy citizen for 20 turns.

quote: Originally posted by theNiceOne There is only one disadvantage to drafting, the fact that the unit start out with less HP.