16-01-2003 00:25									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko The US complaining of being discriminated in the global community is akin to white western men complaining about gender bias against them.

It only bothers some of us. The rest of us rightfully don't care.

	16-01-2003 00:25									#32
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Yep, the allegations are always on the front page, and the retractions are always buried somewhere obscure.

But then, the BIG DOG is always going to be a target untill the next BIG DOG comes along. It's just that the next BIG DOG got lost.

	16-01-2003 00:31									#33
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I say fine, go ahead and investigate.

Imagine, an article in the Guardian accusing the US of doing bad things! Gosh, I'm sure it's all true, too.

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 00:43									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc There is currently a worldwide attempt by journalists, lawyers and others to make the American government recognize its lack of legitimacy. In my opinion this a good and civilized way to rid democracies of bad leadership.

Another Ramsey Clarke show trial no doubt.

	16-01-2003 01:01									#35
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I'm pretty sure most Americans wouldn't care at all if everything was true (which is a big if). [irony]After all, the victims were Afghani => Taleban => Al Qaeda, isn't it ? They got what they deserve isn't it ?[/irony]

I'm pretty sure many people here seriously think what I irnically wrote.

	16-01-2003 01:08									#36
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Spiffor,

I certainly would do not hold such a simplistic view (Afgani = Taleban = Al Qaeda). But you're entitled to make broad, insulting (at least to me) generalizations if you want.

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 01:16									#37
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I second Arrian's comment, Spiffor.

	16-01-2003 01:49									#38
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Gatekeeper: I even grant that Americans often really can't do much without being targeted with critique. Actually, like in every good opposition, we're already allerted, critical, suspicious and prejudiced before you even move. But not for no reason, on the other hand. People from the US display much more than any other western natiuon this "USA! USA!" attitude, that doesn't ask for reasons, just give a punch in the stomach. You're trigger happy, that's it. You tend to view your enemies as monsters, not humans with a life-story or individuals with human rights (see Shi Huang Di's post about Germans, so the assumption that Human Rights violations may happen is not idiotic. Whether it's true or not, one has to investigate. People, even here at Poly like Chris 62 or Shi Huang Di have no problem with such massacres as for them, all Taliban fighters are scum/monsters and deserve death, so why not mass execute them? Really weird that one could think that war crimes actually may happen...
And Arrian, while I also second you that you don't make such simplifications, don't think that holds true for everyone - believe me, some guys are very simple, not only in the US, also here.
Last time, I've heard an American soldiers say, why he is proud to fight against Saddam. His answer? "You know, like, I want to do something for the poor victims of, you know, september 11th"
There's stupid as$es and brutal people everywhere, but it appears as if the US was too eager to protect theirs.

	16-01-2003 02:06									#39
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quote: Actually, like in every good opposition, we're already allerted, critical, suspicious and prejudiced before you even move

"Good opposition," is that how you see yourself?

The rest I knew.

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 02:59									#40
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quoting only parts without the explanatory second part might be a method
Actually, I was referring to what an opposition always does, and has to do: To critically watch the "rulers", so they don't just do what they want, for that's what power generally leads to.
And yes, it's good opposition in this specific case for we really can't need a world-police judging arbitrarily about right and wrong, claiming they alone have swallowed wisdom, while they're only peons of their corporations and lobbies without different opinions being voiced.

	16-01-2003 03:08									#41
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I quoted the part that interested me. Specifically: referring to yourself as "the opposition."

quote: while they're only peons of their corporations and lobbies without different opinions being voiced

Ah, and that is how you see us. You are the defenders of the truth, and the US is the servant of evil (aka corporations and lobbies).

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 03:49									#42
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The amounts given by corporations in the election campaigns last time reached incredible amounts. Don't tell me that they didn't want very much back, especially the weapon lobby. I can't think of another country where high officials for environment and agriculture policies come directly from a major player in agrochemistry (Monsanto). Other example is Enron - whoops.
It's documented in the US approach towards environmental standards (Kyoto protocol) etc. Your weapon lobby rejoices that after September 11th every wepon project - even nuts projects like that semi helicopter-semi plane thing that always crashes) can be put forward because though making tax cuts and cut social programs the military receives even more crazy budgets than it always had.

Your corporations have their hands in everything, democrats like republicans. But don't worry, we European try to catch up as fast as we can with such practices (not so much in the weapon sector, but still)

	16-01-2003 03:50									#43
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Realistically, the Taleban fighters and al Qaeda did some real nasty **** to the the ethnic minorities in areas they conquered. All the US had in country on the ground at the time were SOF teams, so you had groups of six to twelve, supported from the ground, in the midst of hundreds of NA fighters.

There's not much doubt in my mind that there was some pretty brutal retaliation, especially for any of the unlucky bastards who were captured by Dostum's forces. US forces participating is an entirely different story, as is the idea that the US forces in the area, if they were at the scene at all, could have done anything.

One of the things I don't see mentioned is that it appears the grave sites are the same ones as previously known, and the allegation about asphyxiation of prisoners on the way to Shebergan is the same. That issue was brought up months ago, and CENTCOM supported the idea of an independent investigation.

	16-01-2003 03:55									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Those Taliban warriors were guarians of a system of torture of millions of women and protectors of scumbag Osama Bin Laden. I predict will care about this as much as they did about alleged War Crimes by the allies against the Nazis.

And that makes it right?

	16-01-2003 04:00									#45
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Actually, my "gross and insulting generalization" was inspired by MTG's comment. Of course, I made this gross enough to have everyone disagreeing with it (naturally all Afghanis aren't Telebans, and naturally all Talebans aren't Al Qaeda's goons).
But I still think many Americans here will have no problems with these American crimes, should they be proven true : after all, the victims were evil.

	16-01-2003 06:12									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Actually, my "gross and insulting generalization" was inspired by MTG's comment.

Must have been an interesting time warp (tell me, were you surrounded by a sort of purple haze? since you posted your "gross and insulting generalization" two hours and 49 minutes before my first post in the thread.

	16-01-2003 06:14									#47
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Oops, sorry, it wasn't you but Sloww's quote :

quote: Not particularly, but this is the same b.s. that's been circulated since the poor babies (my emphasis) have been detained.

Always get confused with these avatar flags

	16-01-2003 06:29									#48
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quote: Originally posted by orange And that makes it right?

Nothing makes it right. It is unfortunately inevitable, given the very long Afghan history of tribal warfare, predating "The Great Game" between the Imperial Russian and British empires in the 19th century, and even going back at least to the Afghan empire (when Afghanistan had seaports) a couple of centuries before that.

Given a historical mistreatment of prisoners, tribal cultures in which revenge is an important group and infividual concept, you don't have much to work with.

Add to that the fact that the NA leader Masoud was killed by al Qaeda suiciders in coordination with the last Taleban offensive, mass rapes and summary executions by the Taleban against Hezara, Uzbek and Taijik minorities when the Taleban recaptured territory held by the NA, and the fact that most Afghanis of any ethnicity have at least one close relative killed or maimed in the last twenty years fighting (most often by other Afghanis), and bloodlust and lust for revenge is going be essentially uncontrollable. Afghanistan is historically one of the war zones where anyone, on any side, least wants to be taken prisoner in a decisive fight.

Most often, historical Afghan tribal wars didn't get that out of hand, because once one side proved a point, the two sides negotiated some sort of tribute and went their separate ways. After the collapse of the Pashtun-Afghani empire, and the movement of Pashtun north, conquering other tribal areas, things became a lot more bitter and protracted, and set the stage for the current events.

If the Taleban (or any successor group) ever takes over those areas again, there will be hell to pay. Dostum's reputed to be a government unto himself in the areas he holds, and he's a notoriously dirty bastard, as are most of his troops.

	16-01-2003 07:18									#49
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Trolls are afraid of fire...

*straps on Grade A, American-made flame thrower*

EDIT: cause im an evil genocidal American!

	16-01-2003 12:40									#50
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I don't know about anyone else on this thread, but MtG sure knows how the hell to put into words what I can't at times because I'm so damn frustrated with it all.

All I can say in passing is that every nation has its blowhards, and every nation has its lobbies. In Europe, the labor unions appear to be quite strong. In America, the corporations are stronger, it seems. All it is is power projected from differing bases, nothing more.

Gatekeeper

	16-01-2003 12:52									#51
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I wonder why people's memories are so short.

This was brought up when it happened, over a year ago, it was investigated and found that there was no US involement.

Are some of you suggesting that Europe is so backward you get your news a year late?

	16-01-2003 12:58									#52
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quote: Originally posted by orange And that makes it right?

The alleged victims of those massacres are of some of the purest evil the world has ever seen. They defended a system that made women so miserable they would often kill themselves with battery acid. While they haven't been as genocidal as some other regimes(although they killed off plenty of Shia and ethnic minorities), in terms of opression and freedoms denied to their own people these guys have to be champions. They basically disallowed people from having any life enjoyment at all, and they tortured those who tried too. The only form of "entertainment" Taliban Afghanistan allowed was public executions. Combine that with the Taliban's support of the murderous Al Qaeda network, I think you can find other people to be sympathetic for than Taliban soldiers.

	16-01-2003 18:59									#53
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US defends murderers as always...
nothing's changed

	16-01-2003 19:03									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Sorry, but that tends to make me really picky when it comes to allegations of rampant American abuse. You might get testy too, if your country were constantly under a verbal barrage.

Not really, I have my own country under a verbal barrage most of the time. I don't give a fvck if you criticise my country there are loads of things wrong with it. Same as any country.

	16-01-2003 23:57									#55
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MikeH:

I never said that criticism for some action (or inaction) wasn't unwarranted. But when it's day in and day out and a lot of it — unfortunately — consists of Paiktis' one-liners nowadays, it grows tiresome.

And I really don't believe that Britain takes as much flak as America does. Unless there's a whole bunch of it in the European press that I never hear about.

Gatekeeper

	17-01-2003 00:38									#56
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Well Gatekeeper, me and my friends always refer to Blair as Bush's little puppy or as the 55th state (or whatever, i'm not sure
how many staes you have).. So that says it all really: ppl here are not that positive about GB either, of course mostly because he's also a warmonger with simple and futile arguments

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Spiffor, I certainly would do not hold such a simplistic view (Afgani = Taleban = Al Qaeda). But you're entitled to make broad, insulting (at least to me) generalizations if you want. -Arrian

Well: I know it doesn't represent all the Americans, but I just do happen to often see Americans write, say or in any way express opinions such as this one that I do get the feeling that lots of people think like that. I know some dickhead racist that wishes to wipe out the entire arab world (unfortunately a friend of a friend) just based on the argument that they are muslim and must be destroyed... and he's not the only one I see/hear with that opinion (as a sidenote the guy is insanely smart, and he's Belgian )


Wernazuma III

some good points: It's good that things like this get in the media so they will be investigated... whenever there is a doubt such atrocities happen, i think an investigation is appropriate! that's what the opposition is for, to find flaws in the current government!