21-01-2003 17:41									#61
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Is this the right place to mention that "the flag" in GA only had the Confederate emblem put on there in the 1950's as part of the seg fight.

Oh...and the plant I just consulted at in Richmond has confederate flag protest every Thursday, because the workers aren't allowed to wear the confederate flag on t-shirts at work. The plant manager, black guy from up north, doesn't say anything but you can tell he's not crazy about the whole thing...

	21-01-2003 17:43									#62
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Also that a huge amount of state's right rhetoric came from the efforts of those in Virginia fighting the "massive resistance" fight in the 50's and 60's. This fight involved such interesting acts as a county eliminating public schools.

	21-01-2003 17:44									#63
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quote: Originally posted by GP Is this the right place to mention that "the flag" in GA only had the Confederate emblem put on there in the 1950's as part of the seg fight.

I did not know that. That brings me from disagreeing but respecting protestors wanting to bring it back to actively disliking them.

	21-01-2003 19:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by GP Also that a huge amount of state's right rhetoric came from the efforts of those in Virginia fighting the "massive resistance" fight in the 50's and 60's. This fight involved such interesting acts as a county eliminating public schools.

Exactly -- once again, in the 20th century, when racial equality was attempted, states' rights was brought up as a tactical maneuver for white supremacy.

And MTG -- where did I say that only Southern states have been guilty? The federal government has also been guilty of white supremacy many times, such as when Woodrow Wilson brought back segregation to the White House when he was president.

Also, what are you talking about when you say there were no policies in the 19th century that moved towards racial equality?
I recall Reconstruction amendments that gave blacks equal citizenship, and the franchisement.
But the political and racial violence in the Southern states towards the end of Reconstruction denied blacks their equal citizenship rights.

White supremacy is national, not regional -- but historically, white Southern leaders are particulary adept in using states' rights as a tactic for white supremacy.

	21-01-2003 22:37									#65
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quote: Originally posted by GP Is this the right place to mention that "the flag" in GA only had the Confederate emblem put on there in the 1950's as part of the seg fight.

Prior to the CSA, there obviously were no "stars and bars" motifs on state flags. During and after reconstruction, stars and bars and CSA national flags were prohibited when states petitioned for readmission to the Union (in lieu of Yankee military occupation governments). Subsequently, AFAIK, no southern states adopted the stars and bars motifs shortly after reconstruction. All states that eventually did so, acted in response to desegregation issues, so the "historical" argument is false with respect to state flags.

When the South Carolina controversy was going on, and there were threads about it here, my position was that the protestors (against the battle flag flying in front of the state capitol) were essentially correct. IMO, the only "correct" places for display on public lands are at battlefield sites, cemeteries of CSA veterans, individual graves of CSA veterans or officeholders, and historical museums. White pro-battle flag protestors have to realize they supported, or were negligent in allowing, the generic battle flag to be used as a symbol of oppression and intimidation, so they've tarnished the historical significance.

quote: Oh...and the plant I just consulted at in Richmond has confederate flag protest every Thursday, because the workers aren't allowed to wear the confederate flag on t-shirts at work. The plant manager, black guy from up north, doesn't say anything but you can tell he's not crazy about the whole thing...

As far as wearing it in the workplace, workers have no free speech rights on company property or company time. Although I think it would be a tad silly if that was the only flag or symbol that was prohibited.

	21-01-2003 22:48									#66
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun And MTG -- where did I say that only Southern states have been guilty? The federal government has also been guilty of white supremacy many times, such as when Woodrow Wilson brought back segregation to the White House when he was president.

Don't forget northern states. And "where" is implied by your near-obsessive and repetitive trolling about "white southerners."

quote: Also, what are you talking about when you say there were no policies in the 19th century that moved towards racial equality? I recall Reconstruction amendments that gave blacks equal citizenship, and the franchisement. But the political and racial violence in the Southern states towards the end of Reconstruction denied blacks their equal citizenship rights.

I said the real notion of equality - merely having the technical right to vote and being styled a citizen does not create racial equality. Restrictive covenants on land were common in the north until voided by SCOTUS in 1941, segregated school systems (and defacto segregation by enforced "whites only" neighborhoods) were common in many parts of the US (outside the south) until well into the 20th century.

Discrimination in hiring (the recent "black name" study) is still common, as is discrimination in many social settings, and particularly with interracial couples.

Racial discrimination in the military was official and unofficial policy for a century after the war of yankee aggression.

Being "free" (in a technical sense) "but not in my neighborhood" is hardly equality. So excuse me for not being terribly impressed by the 19th century history of US race relations.

Just for "fun," since that is your name, why don't you try moving on from southern whites and blacks, and try out anti-Chinese and anti-Asian racism from the 1880's through the insular cases period. Might give you some fresh material, instead of the same recycled old troll.

	21-01-2003 22:54									#67
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You know, before I came here, I thought that all the slander that the North was still accused of was just that, unjust accusations.
I also was under the impression that Gays were mistreated.

MrFun and Boris, all by their little lonesomes, proved that I was wrong.

	21-01-2003 22:55									#68
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I have read about the violent riots against Chinese immigrants in parts of California in the 1880's.

I have also read about the bounties put on women, children, and men of the native tribes in California.

next

	21-01-2003 23:00									#69
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So everyone everywhere, except Northern Gays, are always wrong?

	21-01-2003 23:02									#70
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What next?

California isn't a southern state. Where is the 'white southerner' problem there?

	21-01-2003 23:02									#71
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As far as wearing it in the workplace, workers have no free speech rights on company property or company time. Although I think it would be a tad silly if that was the only flag or symbol that was prohibited.

Next you're going to tell us we can't say what we want at Apolyton. Sheesh! No respect for the First Amendment.

	21-01-2003 23:06									#72
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand So everyone everywhere, except Northern Gays, are always wrong?

You know that is not how I think. Read posts in other threads, where I have stated that some gays and lesbians need to learn to walk the talk, in regards to giving bisexuals their due respect.


And Slowwhand -- gays ARE mistreated in society. Make no mistake about that.

Imran -- I was pointing out that I have knowledge of discrimination that occured in all parts of our nation -- not just the Southern states.

	21-01-2003 23:12									#73
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Yet you never speak out about the OTHER discrimination. You are a one trick pony about 'Southern whites'.

	21-01-2003 23:12									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What next? California isn't a southern state. Where is the 'white southerner' problem there?

It isn't Gay North either, Imran. Which is what I said.
Only Northern Gays are right.
Find where I say California is Southern.
That's what I thought. Thanks.

	21-01-2003 23:17									#75
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You arrogent SOB, you always think people are talking to you .

	21-01-2003 23:40									#76
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I love you , Imran.
You know, in a human to human way.
As far as you, MISTERFun, baloney.
Look just through visible threads, and look at your rantings about anything remotely Southern.

	21-01-2003 23:54									#77
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I have read about the violent riots against Chinese immigrants in parts of California in the 1880's. I have also read about the bounties put on women, children, and men of the native tribes in California. next

Actually, I was thinking of the series of SCOTUS cases and Federal anti-Chinese immigration laws. And bounties on natives were common all over the US.

However, seeing as neither of those fit in with your established troll theme, I'm not surprised you chose to blow them off with one liners.

You just have the hots for those big, strapping, manly southern boys, that's all.

	22-01-2003 00:03									#78
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"I said the real notion of equality - merely having the technical right to vote and being styled a citizen does not create racial equality. "

Tsk-tsk, MtG. Do you not realize yet that to some people the implementing of a law IS the solution, regardless of the real world effects?

	22-01-2003 00:06									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yet you never speak out about the OTHER discrimination. You are a one trick pony about 'Southern whites'.

Dah-da-DAH!

Sorry, couldn't resist. I hope I got the link to work right.

Edit: Oh, well. Scroll down to my second post.

	22-01-2003 00:40									#81
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Actually, I was thinking of the series of SCOTUS cases and Federal anti-Chinese immigration laws. And bounties on natives were common all over the US. However, seeing as neither of those fit in with your established troll theme, I'm not surprised you chose to blow them off with one liners. You just have the hots for those big, strapping, manly southern boys, that's all.

One liners? If you want me to write an entire book about everything I know in regards to the history of the United States here on Apolyton, just to cover all of my bases, then why didn't you say so?

As for your last comment -- I don't find you attractive at all. Sorry to break your rebel, heart.

And read about what I said, about some gays and lesbians who discriminate against bisexuals.

	22-01-2003 03:06									#82
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John:

Mr Fun, maybe not a one liner, one trick pony more like it .

	22-01-2003 04:32									#83
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun As for your last comment -- I don't find you attractive at all. Sorry to break your rebel, heart.

Why thank you. I shall rest safer at night, secure in that knowledge.

quote: And read about what I said, about some gays and lesbians who discriminate against bisexuals.

They should just stick to discriminating against breeders.

	22-01-2003 04:36									#84
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Breeders. Ha!

	22-01-2003 05:14									#85
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The Southern states succeeded because of slavery.

The North attacked the Southern states to keep the Union together, not because of slavery.

I find that people from the North like to think that the North was a progressive utopia where every was treated equally. Of course it was far from the truth.

I also find that people from the South begin to froth at the mouth at the mention of the "War of Northern Agression." I find nothing in the Constitution giving states the right to succeed from the Union.

While in many cases white supremecists used state's rights as a justification for discrimination (while as already mentioned they would forget the argument on another issue) state's rights keeps the the government from becoming a dictatorship of the majority. As much as people from Idaho don't want to be ruled by liberals from the East Coast, people from New Hampshire don't want to be ruled by conservatives from Montana.

Though cooperation does need to be vastly improved espiecielly in law enforcement.

And Northern gays can be just as racist and sexist as the rest of us. A gay man in Baltimore I used to live next to could hardly keep himself from spitting on Koreans and Indians.

	22-01-2003 05:23									#86
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The North did not secede. The North did not attack. The North defended the Union against Southern aggression against personal of the United States armed forces stationed in the South.

The principle espoused by protagonists of extremist states rights is the very system of Confederacy that preceded the Constitution.

However, I believe a state may secede with the consent of Congress.

	22-01-2003 23:01									#87
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quote: Originally posted by ThePantaloonDog The Southern states succeeded because of slavery. The North attacked the Southern states to keep the Union together, not because of slavery. I find that people from the North like to think that the North was a progressive utopia where every was treated equally. Of course it was far from the truth. I also find that people from the South begin to froth at the mouth at the mention of the "War of Northern Agression." I find nothing in the Constitution giving states the right to succeed from the Union. While in many cases white supremecists used state's rights as a justification for discrimination (while as already mentioned they would forget the argument on another issue) state's rights keeps the the government from becoming a dictatorship of the majority. As much as people from Idaho don't want to be ruled by liberals from the East Coast, people from New Hampshire don't want to be ruled by conservatives from Montana. Though cooperation does need to be vastly improved espiecielly in law enforcement. And Northern gays can be just as racist and sexist as the rest of us. A gay man in Baltimore I used to live next to could hardly keep himself from spitting on Koreans and Indians.

Point number 1 -- I never said that Northern states were or are, a utopian example of equality.

Point number 2 -- I never said that gays and lesbians are flawless when dealing with other minority groups.

Why are we arguing on something that all of us already find to be common knowledge -- that racism is not exclusive to Southern states?

	22-01-2003 23:03									#88
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quote: Why are we arguing on something that all of us already find to be common knowledge -- that racism is not exclusive to Southern states?

Because you tend to assert that it IS exclusive to the South.

	22-01-2003 23:05									#89
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Imran, we have a name for what you're doing by arguing with MrFun.
It's kind of uncouth, but the term is "pissing in the wind".

	22-01-2003 23:15									#90
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My assertion was that states' rights arguments were historically used by white Southern leaders as political guerrila tactic to preserve white supremacy.

That does not imply that racism is exclusive to only Southern states.