17-01-2003 08:49									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Chemical weapons aren't any more deadly than conventional explosive weapons. To consider them WoMD is hyperbole, IMO.

I think you're thinking of the first generation systems developed/used in WW1 - Mustard gas, cyanide and a few blister agents. These have effects that can be anulled or drastically ameliorated with a simple mask.

Later generations are far far more deadly - persistant nerve agents, certain binary weapons and a few neuro-toxins are capable of causing an immense loss of life if introduced into a populated region or city.

	17-01-2003 08:54									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Originally posted by Frogger As long as tehy were empty, I don't think this violates the agreement. You can fill them with conventional warheads too... No you can't.

They said you could on CNN...

	17-01-2003 10:34									#33
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave edit: actually if they got hold of ebola virus and just spread it in daylight at New York airport or here in London. Now that would be a global catastrophe. I better not think about those things

Ebola Zaire, the lethal strain, is not commuted via airborne routes.

	17-01-2003 10:35									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Originally posted by Frogger As long as tehy were empty, I don't think this violates the agreement. You can fill them with conventional warheads too... No you can't.

Why on earth not?

	17-01-2003 10:36									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Ebola Zaire, the lethal strain, is not commuted via airborne routes.

Actually...if you read THE HOT ZONE, they mention some possibilites of strains being occasionaly airborne. And if you read The Cobra Event (by Preston) he discusses the possibility of taking a bug and tweaking it to make it airborne.

	17-01-2003 10:37									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Ebola Zaire, the lethal strain, is not commuted via airborne routes.

You forgot Sudan.

	17-01-2003 10:40									#37
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quote: Why on earth not?

The warheads are specially made, with polyurethane coating on the inside and special nozzles on the top to allow for the introduction of chemical agents. I guess that you could theoretically use them for conventional warheads, but why? You'd have to modify them, so why not buy the warheads meant for conventional explosives? These were pretty obviously meant to be used for chemical warfare...

	17-01-2003 10:42									#38
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But again, so what? They weren't being used for anything. They were disused, sitting in crates covered in dust and bird poop. Oh, the horrors!!!

	17-01-2003 10:43									#39
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Because according to the Iraqis (again, to be taken with a grain of salt) they were purchased prior to 1991. And since then, I have the suspicion they've had problems buying military equipment so they packratted everything they were allowed to.

Don't know if it's true or not, but that seems to be what they've suggested...

	17-01-2003 10:51									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov They were disused, sitting in crates covered in dust and bird poop. Oh, the horrors!!!

Which article says that they were "sitting in crates covered in dust and bird poop?"

	17-01-2003 10:51									#41
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The article that Che supposedly read.

	17-01-2003 11:09									#42
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Empty shells? Big deal.

Now, I don't care if these guys have WoMD or not. I care about the Iraqi people and what Saddam is doing to them (go ahead and laugh). Iraq is not a big danger to anyone in my mind, but to the people of Iraq. Maybe to Israel, but Israel could kick them back and destroy Iraq if needed. So, as a big threat? Nah..

But anyway, this is a good sign. It means it's more safer to attack in february. There could be some bad stuff coming back from Saddam, sure, but at least these warheads are not flying filled with nasty substances. So good for the coming attack.
Any man whose people are starving and dying and is playing hide and seek, cat and mouse, build me another castle, I'm the dictator and you're not should be shot in the back. So this news is nothing bad, it's actually positive.

	17-01-2003 11:11									#43
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So all of these empty warheads are good warheads. People should love them, not think 'bad bad bad'. Of course they have these things lying around, and if they're empty, well that's just great.

And as for chemical weapons, everyone has them.

	17-01-2003 14:21									#44
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Pekka: I agree on anything you've said, except the 'good warheads' part.

	17-01-2003 16:16									#45
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well, armed warhead is bad, right? So.. empty warhead is.. good? You can't have it all bad!

	17-01-2003 17:20									#46
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I recently found in our kitchen a glass of poison. It was empty, but I begin to suspect, that my wife wants to kill me!

	17-01-2003 17:34									#47
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quote: I recently found in our kitchen a glass of poison. It was empty, but I begin to suspect, that my wife wants to kill me!

Has your wife poisoned thousands of Kurds and Iranians in the past? If so, your fears are probably justified...

	17-01-2003 17:41									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Has your wife poisoned thousands of Kurds and Iranians in the past? If so, your fears are probably justified...

No, she isn't turkish. So I'm probably safe.

	17-01-2003 17:49									#49
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A German making racist assaults on Turks? I expect nothing less.

	17-01-2003 17:56									#50
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It must clearly have been a racial slur, I apologize. An US ally like Turkey can never be guilty of having commited mass murder on Kurds.

	17-01-2003 17:59									#51
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quote: An US ally like Turkey can never be guilty of having commited mass murder on Kurds.

Exactly. The United States is the perfect fount from which all the world's peace and prosperity flows. May our benevolent light shine on the world for ever and ever. Amen.

	17-01-2003 19:03									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph It must clearly have been a racial slur, I apologize. An US ally like Turkey can never be guilty of having commited mass murder on Kurds.

A German talking about mass murder? It's a good thing we kicked your asses before you slid the entire population of Europe into those ovens. But anyway, at least we still have troops there to occupy your country.

	17-01-2003 19:27									#53
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quote: Originally posted by GP A German talking about mass murder? It's a good thing we kicked your asses before you slid the entire population of Europe into those ovens.

At least I know and don't disclaim the crimes committed by my country in the past and do not try to justify them and to find lame excuses for the war crimes committed in Dresden, Hiroshima, Vietnam and so forth like you propaganda infested yanks do.

quote: But anyway, at least we still have troops there to occupy your country.

We all know this. That's all what your country is about. Hopefully the alliance against you grows in the future.

	17-01-2003 19:28									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You forgot Sudan.

And Ivory Coast.

But Zaire is the nastiest.

	17-01-2003 19:31									#55
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quote: Originally posted by GP Actually...if you read THE HOT ZONE, they mention some possibilites of strains being occasionaly airborne. And if you read The Cobra Event (by Preston) he discusses the possibility of taking a bug and tweaking it to make it airborne.

Yes, there is a strain called Ebola-Reston that is airborne, but it does not infect humans.

It might be theoretically possible to tweak a bug, or maybe not, depending on the genetics.

	17-01-2003 19:42									#56
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quote: Hopefully the alliance against you grows in the future

Now, SR, despite being trolled first, that was a nasty thing to say.

-Arrian

	17-01-2003 19:55									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Now, SR, despite being trolled first, that was a nasty thing to say.

It was a counter troll, no less and no more. But it contains a grain of truth, considering the breathtaking speed your president turns his last allies in enemies and raises anti-americanism everywhere. This generation has nothing to fear, but if your country continues with its present foreign policy, the next generation will see the US being hated throughout the world. That is not a nice feeling, I assure you. I know it, I'm a German.

	17-01-2003 21:38									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph At least I know and don't disclaim the crimes committed by my country in the past and do not try to justify them and to find lame excuses for the war crimes committed in Dresden, Hiroshima, Vietnam and so forth like you propaganda infested yanks do.

Have fun stoking the furnace.

quote: We all know this. That's all what your country is about. Hopefully the alliance against you grows in the future.

You cry when we're there. You cry when we leave. Why not just get it over and start another Nazi uprising, skull head. We'll clean your clock just like we did last time.

	17-01-2003 21:53									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yes, there is a strain called Ebola-Reston that is airborne, but it does not infect humans. It might be theoretically possible to tweak a bug, or maybe not, depending on the genetics.

I am from Reston. I have read THE HOT ZONE several times and have talked to CDC epidemiologists about it.

1. The Ebola Reston strain is indistinguishable chemically from Ebola Zaire. It is believed to be a different strain based on the results of the Reston experience. But we don't know for sure. Certainly, it is VERY closely related to Zaire. Even more so than Sudan.*

2. Reston did infect three of the keepers. They got sick, but not seriously. And no mortality. This is one major difference from Zaire. The other is the high airborne infection rate between monkey rooms.

3. The Hot Zone book discusses one experience of airborne transmission of Zaire prior to Reston. In monkeys. But it also discusses several times when the disease was NOT transmitted by air. Including one where a doctor worked in intimate contact with fluids of Ebola victims and was not infected. It appears that there is some variability of Zaire. Or at lest we don't really know the whole story on it.

4. I wouldn't want to get anywhere near Zaire (airborne or not). And Reston is STILL classified as a Cat4 pathogen. We may have just gotten lucky with what happened at Isaac Newton Square (1 mile from my house). I really don't want to expose several people to Reston and than find out that it can have mortality effects. (But I don't want to exaggerate the danger. The limited experience we had with Reston suggests it is non-fatal.)


*The flourescence test used to identify Sudan and Zaire gives a weak glow for Sudan and a strong glow for Zaire (and nothing for non-Ebola). Reston glows strongly. Like Zaire. However, the strains have not been sequenced. Even "within Zaire" there are different strains of Zaire. So the question starts to become academic about how they differ. Reston appears to be a non-lethal strain of Zaire.

	17-01-2003 21:57									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It might be theoretically possible to tweak a bug, or maybe not, depending on the genetics.

Read THE COBRA EVENT. The book was written in 1998 and is almost eery in its predictions. Prior to 911, you could say that Preston was exaggerating. After the anthrax episodes and such the fictional book seems less implausible.

Also he worked real facts and fiction together in a disturbing way. Not in the usual disturbing way, where someone puts in fiction and claims it is true. What is shocking is parts that you assume are fiction...but instead are true!!! He even pulled some of his punches because he did not want to write a how to novel or one that was to encouraging for terrorists.