02-02-2003 02:20									#31
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I build my second worker only when I found my second city, except if I need a second worker right after I build my capital, due to geography and general setting of the land.

I usually don't bother about the trends of the civ I'm playing with, I find myself always roading and mining at the start. But I think that industrious workers may occasionally change my relationship with other parts of the game, like settler production or building improvements in my first cities.

	02-02-2003 04:51									#32
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I usually keep the worker, build a settler, found a new city, build another worker in the capital, build 1 or 2 units, then start the Pyramids.

	02-02-2003 06:47									#33
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quote: Originally posted by raguil_79 I usually keep the worker, build a settler, found a new city, build another worker in the capital, build 1 or 2 units, then start the Pyramids.

I like to build a second settler-worker-spearman combo from the capital but this is very close to my opening. the first worker develpes the best 3 tiles of the capital bfore expanding the road system.

	04-02-2003 21:45									#34
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Some people have fun seeing which strategies work best for them. I personally just like to play but, I l ike to read anyones ideas to get new strategies.
Chris

	06-02-2003 22:17									#35
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Though I have never tried adding my first worker to my capital city - I road and then mine - I can see a case being made for it in SP mode, not just MP.

(I play Regent, Huge world, continents, all opponents)

When you start in especially rich terrain - many rivers and cattle, wheat, etc. - you are generally surrounded by other civs. Here, expansion is key - I think most players would agree that on SP mode at least, expansion in the ancient era is key to the later game.

Therefore, if my land is yielding me a DECENT amount of shields already, I can see the case to get that other settler out there ASAP. ESPECIALLY if I'm playing an expansionist civ, and my scout has already found another rich city site.

I intend to try this strategy next time I play as an expansionist Civ. Good work Spericles, for bringing an innovative (if maybe not the best) strategy to light.

	17-02-2003 01:06									#36
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Er i just hit automate for me first worker, lazy thinking? maybe, strategicley wrong? of course, much simpler? most definatly!!!!

	17-02-2003 02:14									#37
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my second worker comes much later in the game, as i usually play an industrious civ and dont really need a mass of workers early on.

i'm a "contained REXer" of sorts, i will often send out a settler party to colonize a chokepoint / border area FIRST, and then REX the inside. the border city created is usually corrupt, so i use that to pump out workers, and a temple for culture.

some games i end up with a "worker city" or two, which grow at the same rate as they produce workers. i'll usually grab 2 or 3 from those cities.

but yea, i'm all about the roads early on, mines soon after.

i almost never irrigate, as it's near useless in despotism.

	17-02-2003 11:33									#38
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Uber:

I like to max out my REX phase and the only way to do that is to build lots of workers. Put that choke point city out too far and its liable to fall to a peeved German, Scandanavia or Mongol attack party. You are right about irrigation except in the plain areas of the world.

	17-02-2003 14:56									#39
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Very fine indeed,start the jump in production early with growth.What more efficient way to grow larger cities;join worker first doubles city size. Build crops earlyw/roads(terrain permitting) this increases size quickly and is ongoing .Ten turns(or so)on down the road the crops are still adding to the cities growth and the civs development. Furthermore,the worker is doing it still/again(perhaps for new city;building on premodified terrain is a blessing)and the capitol city is/has produced a unit for protection or deturrance.Most ptw MP games I play are Elimination games. It is very unwise to build a second city (quickly or not) without doing two vital things FIRST. The capitol city must have at least one unit within and the second(new) city must have protection immediatly.To do otherwise is risking a lot on the chance that no one will be near enough, not to pillage, but to take a/the city(end game in Elim. mode)or capture the lonely settler (Now TWO workers for the enemy)leaving a teary eyed ruler wondering....What have I done, aargh....

	17-02-2003 16:50									#40
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hi ,

when you get scouts its always good to get some of those asap out there , ..... you can do this with easy , in the mean time the worker has build some roads and some mines , maybe provided a link to a lux , .... then a defense unit , in the mean time you got a city size three or four , a second worker , a temple , a settler , a defensive unit , ....etc , ...

when playing as the americans your capital expands fast

have a nice day

	18-02-2003 16:42									#41
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I always use my first worker to build a road to (hopefully) my next city site so that the second settler can settle ASAP.

I am interested in what Sperricles said about building on top of resources. Did you mean on top of or directly to the side of? I have recently begun to wonder what benefits, if any, are gained from the land square that you place your cities on. So, if I settle on top of an oil well (not knowing its there of course) doesn't it just disappear?

Jan

	18-02-2003 22:06									#42
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hmmm building on oil......not sure....other resources I don't seem to lose.

As admitted earlier...I now agree that in most cases it is better not to add the settler......BUT not all cases.

Case #1: 1 hour time limit

Adding the worker can make a score difference that is significant

Case #2: Aztecs

This is the technique I suggested earlier and have been fine tuning for the MP environment (tiny/small map) where it simply excels and even more so with elimination mode on.

Step 1 - Add worker to city
Step 2 - Build settler in 5 turns
Step 3 - Build 2nd city 2 squares from 1st (away from where you think enemies will most likely be ...ie often towards coast if visible)
Step 4 - Build barracks in each city
Step 5 - Pump out 8 jaguars (Scout with the first ones)
Step 6 - The second you see a border.... back off
Step 7 - Unite the Jaguar Stack
Step 8 - At very end of turn move stack right next to city (which is also the enemy's first view of you)
Step 9 - Attack at the very beginning of the next turn
Step 10 - Rejoice in your victory!

I find that this strategy works well for the following reasons: You have the extra time to leave cities undefended at first because YOU are the aztecs meaning no one else can get an army to you quick enough. Also because you are the aztecs...they are going to be more careful about protecting their cities in the early turns rather than diverting more resource to exploring.

Most people expect a 1-2 jags to show up in the early turns and pillage or try a 1 vs 1 with a stray city that only has one warrior or spearman for defense. By the time your barracks and stack is ready...even if they have seen one of your exploring jags...enough turns have passed that they now think you are pretty far away from them... and thus less of a threat. And they dont know that you have found their city because you retreated as soon as you saw their border. Because enough time passed without seeing you..they have probably been willing to expand a little more and ease up a bit on the defense to do it. And indeed if they have not planned unusually well they will be very vulnerable. The 8-stack will easily take a city that even has 1 or 2 spearmen. Even 3 spears is very conquerable if they are not veterans. Steps 8 & 9 are also key in helping to keep reinforcemnts from getting there in time.

I have not had an elimination game yet with this strategy where at least one player has not died early to the hand of the 8 stack. Others have even reported its succes even against mighty carthage...although they sent a few more jags to help. This strategy does struggle especially against greece, and sometimes against carthage (though carthage has trouble producing a mass of defenders even though they are strong defenders and often overrelies on the defense to ecnourage expansion)

The key benefit of this tactic, besides one dead player in elim mode...has been that the aztecs can finally rush a large veteran army at a time that is still very early....but is unexpected. Contrasting to the aztec players who build the jags all from that first city only..as a rush...my method will help cut down on maintenance after that 4th unit, giving a reasonable chance at not getting buried in the tech race after your first foe dies.

Last edited by Sperricles on 21-02-2003 at 11:33

	19-02-2003 12:19									#43
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need roads if there are no rivers

	19-02-2003 17:06									#44
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Sperricles,

I thought the idea of adding your first worker to your city had died a death a long time ago, there have been many studies and tests showing it to be counter-productive.

The MP scenarios you outline seem to warrant a second look though, if I ever play online with AP turned on, and on a small/tiny map I may give it a try.

As long as no-one is pretending this is useful for single player or PBEM, it seems everyone agrees. Indeed, most of the negative comments arose before you ever mentioned online MP games. Most people who have played civ for a long time would not touch online MP with a barge pole, as it is far from what we know and love about civ. Because online MP playing is so different from 'normal' civ games the strategies are completely different, and stating that your strat is for these kinds of games may alleviate confusion in the future.

FWIW, PBEM games are much more akin to single player games, except you have humans involved too. The strategies are very close to the single player strategies, with the exception that you can't exploit a human the way you can an AI.