24-01-2003 15:46									#61
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The first responses from GP to part two which commented on "The Elements of Style" and provided very clear examples of what constitutes clarity and what is wasted text was actually quite informative. If Dan had listened with an open ear the replies to the third installment would have never happened -> the third would have been well written.

Instead GP was flamed and personally attacked as a troll.

Check the thread, a lot of the reason I made this account and started complaining is because of that thread, and to back up GP who was right.

Now as for "It doesn't take a genius to spot all the settlers who have joined 'poly just to complain about Dan's preview(s)" I think that if you see a great number of people MAKING ACCOUNTS just to complain about the quality of a preview, of all things it should make you wonder about the quality of a review, not the quality of the people complaining. There is no global IgMoo (or whatever) vs Poly Conspiracy, I swear.

Anyway, at this point I don't envy Dan much, with the amount of bad press I'm sure he feels great amounts of pressure to 'make good' on future previews. I hope that he remembers that although people will be more critical of the 4th installment then on the second, or third, and certainly then the first - if he DOES write a solid, clear 4th installment, people WILL applaud him, be happy, and there will be a minimum of *****ing. People are suprisingly easy to placate when you give them what they want.

Don't take it personally, if you write a good fourth installment I will be the first to applaud you.

	24-01-2003 16:00									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Jack Frost There is no global IgMoo (or whatever) vs Poly Conspiracy, I swear.

http://www.ina-community.com/forums...threadid=254769

Check out the 4th post on this thread

-Jam

	24-01-2003 16:08									#63
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dude...

if the preview was good, nobody would be making fun of it. IgMoo people would be too busy sucking his **** to complain.


And the entire thread you link to is sort of silly and meaningless. Relax. Breath deep. IGMoo is not out to get you.

	24-01-2003 16:18									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Jack Frost The first responses from GP to part two which commented .... Instead GP was flamed and personally attacked as a troll.

amazingly, even GP admits that he trolls...

	24-01-2003 16:30									#65
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hey man, stop making me feel guilty with your subtle implications.

I'm playing nice. I would even offer to help edit the next installment if I thought that:
A) there was any chance
B) that I could word it in a way he wouldn't be further offended by

	24-01-2003 16:33									#66
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Well, I liked some of the bits in this preview. There was a bit more opinion than in the previous ones. Saying that leaving the oppressometer at a low level can be risky even if you're at peace is a good example of what I liked. More of this please and a bit less time explaining what is already explicit in the screenshots.

For example, the explanations of the sybols for food and manufacturing productions were useful since their meaning is not obvious. However, the meaning of the 'balanced', 'specific' and 'natural' development settings is just a reprint of the text in the screenshot and is unnecessary. Just go straight to your (very good) comments on when 'specific' might be a bad choice and that 'balanced' seems to be a good option most of the time.

The preview is still a bit prolix, as many here have said, and it contains a few too many spelling errors.

Can MarkG proof-read these before putting them up? That's not meant as an attack on Dan's writing.

I have to write numerous reports as part of my job and I think my prose is pretty good. However, when I give my work to a colleague for proof-reading, I'm always suprised by the glaring errors that I failed to spot. A good proof-read will cut down on most of the flames that these previews are attracting.

I'll be looking forward to your next 'governments' preview. Be sure to provide plenty of info on which governments are in which series (i.e. is corporate a representative or absolutist government - or both) and how easy/hard is is to change government. A table like the 'forbidden race picks' in P2 would be nice. And can you give your opinion on which government types seem most useful and why?

	24-01-2003 16:36									#67
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quote: stop making me feel guilty

your actions make you feel guilty. not other people

quote: would even offer to help

wow, you're offering your free time for the pleasure of others? i wonder how many people do that....

be carefull though. if your work isnt good enough, you might get a couple of death threats. but just a couple...

	24-01-2003 16:38									#68
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i'm just quoting this in order to increase the percentage of the usefull stuff of this thread

quote: Originally posted by campfreddie I'll be looking forward to your next 'governments' preview. Be sure to provide plenty of info on which governments are in which series (i.e. is corporate a representative or absolutist government - or both) and how easy/hard is is to change government. A table like the 'forbidden race picks' in P2 would be nice. And can you give your opinion on which government types seem most useful and why?

	24-01-2003 18:33									#69
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I'd also welcome more description about how it feels to be playing the game. We're going to get a description of what every single menu item actually does from the manual/tutorial. You make tantalising messages about how you found not colonising to be a bad idea and how you lost a war. I really wish you'd describe how you began, why you chose certain paths and how they worked out. Learning that you could have been one of ten different government styles isn't as interesting as knowing how you handled the one you did choose.

	24-01-2003 19:37									#70
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No, I don't imagine Dan's happy with the reaction his writing has produced. However, one must learn from these things. Nothing else can be said. Yelling at the readers about their reaction completely misses the point. When an audience is involved, their opinion is rarely "wrong"; they're the judge for such things.

Dan can sulk and cry about this, which might make him feel better for a while, or he can think hard about the points being raised. That someone was rude about their point in this instance doesn't necessarily invalidate their opinion (even if they're a certified ass).

(shrug)

Still hoping for a good second half. Put me in coach.

	24-01-2003 20:11									#71
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quote: Yelling at the readers about their reaction completely misses the point. When an audience is involved, their opinion is rarely "wrong"; they're the judge for such things.

1) who's yelling?
2) the fact that someone posts in this thread doesnt make him an accurate representative of the audience of the article. our moo3 preview has generated over 100,000 pageviews. somehow taking the total of 250 posts on the comments threads as the opinion of the moajority of the audience doesnt sound the correct thing to do.

quote: That someone was rude about their point in this instance

example of "rudeness": "must kill dan before he writes another review"

	24-01-2003 21:01									#72
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I think the main reason i didn't like that preview is that it didn't contain as much new information as i expected. I didn't like finding that i had read through a five page preview and only found 1 or 2 new points about the game. I look forwards to discussions of space combat and diplomacy, as i feel these areas could provide some very interesting new information.

	24-01-2003 21:02									#73
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quote: our moo3 preview has generated over 100,000 pageviews. somehow taking the total of 250 posts on the comments threads as the opinion of the moajority of the audience doesnt sound the correct thing to do.

So Apolyton's position is the MOO3 preview is a well written and informative piece?

	24-01-2003 21:06									#74
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Further, how much feedback is normally received by Apolyton for web posts? Are the three threads here, and the multiple threads at the IG forums, more or less feedback than is normally received?

	24-01-2003 21:45									#75
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I like the information in the preview, and I appreciate the amount of time Dan put into playing the game and writing the article.

All of that said, it needs editing desperately.

	24-01-2003 21:49									#76
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"Niteshade, sure you have your opinion, but how are you helping Dan by just saying its the worst preview you've ever read ?"

Well I was hoping to be more polite, but it was necesary to say that to emphasis just how strongly I feel about this, and show that I'm not just shooting from the hip like you seemed to be accusing people. As for how it helps him, I'd say it's far nicer to him to be honest. If we tell him he's a good writer when he's not, that is far more cruel in the long run. What if he decides to go into a writing career based on your input? Think of all the time and money he could waste on that, not to mention the false confidence which could interfere with actualy learning to write. Even worse, what if he decides not to take any writing courses in school because he is already such a good writer. By trying to be nice to him, you could be causing great damage to him and his career.


" Have you ever read such a long, indepth preview in your 18 years of computer gaming? "

Yes I have, although I will admit it's rare. But long doesn't necesarily mean good. You could easily condence part 3 to about 2 pages without losing any information at all.


"Or one with so many screenshots? (Already more than 50 screenshots, and only halfway through)"

Once again yes, and that's even a little less rare. I will say though that I do actualy like the screen shots. And I have said that I appreciate the effort he made, despite the poor writing.

"Give the guy a chance, hey? He's doing a good job. "

Well clearly most people don't agree. And we are certainly giving him a chance. We've read 18 pages of his stuff after all.

As for the wierd IG vs. apolyton thing, I've already explained why I don't agree with any of this. Nor do I think that this thread has in anyway become about this, only a very small number of posts have mentioned this.

	24-01-2003 22:28									#77
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Geez, I never thougth that I would need to do this thing on Poly.

Clicking unsubscribe button....

Done.

	25-01-2003 00:32									#78
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This thread is starting to get seriously silly... and not in a good way. People, let's face the facts:

DanQ is new to Moo and he's not one of you guys that's been posting on IGMoo for the past 2 years... His preview is as taylored to people who are casually interested in the product as those of us who have been trying to get any scrap of information we can about it for over a year now.

I think DanQ did a decent job. I'll admit that I skimmed rather than actually read the first full two boring pages about the layout of the main options screen (who wants to learn about that?), but the rest of the preview was genuinely QUITE useful and interesting. Given that I don't have the game yet, hearing about how the oppressometer works and how the various colonization and financial options works was genuinely helpful.

As I posted on the past page of this forum, my suggestion is very similar to the poster MarkG quoted.

Please include as much detail about the differences between individual government types as you can reasonably do. That's an element of the game I've personally (don't know about others...) been wondering about since this game was ORIGINALLY on my mind over a year ago now... As much as Quicksilver and IG have shared with all of us about how they wanted religions to work and leaders to work, they've been very quiet about how governments work... so that's an area where both casual watchers of the game and those trying to get every bit of information they can would likely be highly interested.

I just happen to be more interested in most in that because that's my area of academic research - comparative government

DanQ did a pretty good job and his being "new" to the Moo games also makes the preview more accessable to those who are likewise new. I'm not one of those people, since I still play my original copy of the original Moo every once in a while , but that doesn't mean that I can't see how those not previously into the Moo games could appreciate DanQ's experience with approaching Moo3 and finding the interface not all that hard to figure out

So chill... not everything being written is being written with YOU in mind and if you're not interested in a section, just skim it rather than reading it like I did

Thanks DanQ - and I'm really looking forward to that Part 5

	25-01-2003 01:45									#79
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I've read some real crap in my day, but I don't think this qualifies. I have trouble concentrating on previews because I would rather wait and play the game itself and don't want to spoil anything. Maybe this contributed to my feelings on his writing style. The only complaint I see being valid is the slothlike pace of the previews. He's got three left; cut him a little slack about the content. He has other obligations besides producing the ultimate preview and, like every column writer in a newspaper, has a certain number of inches to fill. Plus I feel the shadow of an NDA hovering over his discourse. Let him get into the game a little bit and I'm sure some strategic points will emerge.

Please don't take this as a stinging reprimand; the last thing I want is to be the dottering grandmother of Apolyton. Just consider pulling some of the punches a bit. I'd rather b*tch about the content of the previews than b*tch that they were pulled due to lack of restraint on our part.

	25-01-2003 02:10									#80
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If there's an NDA reason he's prevented from discussing *gameplay*, then he should say so.

1) it's not his fault
2) Potential customers should know when a game they're considering purchasing is refusing to release what surely gaming consumers would consider *basic information* about the game (which is what a NDA covering gameplay would mean).

NDA covering gameplay would be about the worst sign I can think of, for whether or not the game's any good.

However, that's content only.

	25-01-2003 02:26									#81
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There are ways of offering constructive criticism: flamethrower, tactless, polite, and private. Dan has told us that some have sent him private suggestions, which he appreciates. Other suggestions have been polite and considered. Some, in my opinion, have chosen the flamethrower and tactless methods of delivering criticism. I think this does a disservice to Dan, and to future installments of Dan’s review, since criticism is less likely to be taken to heart if it is viewed as an attack.

I have valued Apolyton because of its polite and helpful forums and I will be distressed if certain forums and our valued moderators are subject to less than polite discussions. The sad thing is that it only takes a few to change the tone of a forum and scare people away.

Now, back to the ‘nice’ part of Apolyton – the SMAC forums.

Hydro

	25-01-2003 02:30									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro Now, back to the ‘nice’ part of Apolyton – the SMAC forums.

The Civ3 part can be 'nice', too

	25-01-2003 02:32									#83
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bah, civ, smac....

MOO tles over all!!!

and now its GOOOOOOOOLD!

	25-01-2003 03:18									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro I have valued Apolyton because of its polite and helpful forums and I will be distressed if certain forums and our valued moderators are subject to less than polite discussions. The sad thing is that it only takes a few to change the tone of a forum and scare people away. Hydro

Hear, Hear!

Not everyone out here is as thankless, thoughtless or rude as most of the posters in this thread.

I, for one, am thankful for the information.

	25-01-2003 04:01									#85
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Trying to say something useful:

This part of the review mostly shows that you have options in each and every domain like chosing one of 2 or 3 settings (for planet production, settling, finances...), or various options for warfare/research/budget.
Dan said he tried to handle the settling setting manually and found out the ai was better than him at that point. That is probably because he is new to that game, but that may also mean the ai is actually good enough so you can trust it. In which case it would be good news.

I wonder, however, on the gameplay issues. It looks like you can set an option to 'average' and forget it for the rest of the game. That will probably work quite well in SP, letting you concentrate on parts of the game you are interested in. That may, however, turn MP into clickfests, considering that, if you know how to use every setting, you may want to change them in each of your planets etc., which takes time... I am not sure, since it is not clear to me now how the per planet management works.

And, most importantly, what is the effect on gameplay? I understand these screens are lumped together because they are accessed from the same UI, but how does one access deeper control (micromanagement)? Do you feel in charge of your empire? For instance, does changing a setting have an impact on gameplay, and how long does it take for the consequences of that action to be seen?
It is nice for instance to know that setting planet production to specialized will make you vulnerable in case of trade problems (war), but is it possible to know how long it would take to change the economy of a specialized empire so you can turn it into something autonomous enough to wage war? I doubt strategic considerations like these can be obtained from a first skimming of the game, but I do appreciate the fact that the preview allows me wonder about such a question. Will I get stuck into a peaceful civ if I choose that most-productive option, or not?

	25-01-2003 04:48									#86
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quote: wow, you're offering your free time for the pleasure of others? i wonder how many people do that....

quote: if you are realy interested in make thing better, it might be better to mail dan personally

I spent an hour and a half after the first one came out searching for typos, misused words, grammar errors, etc, and just trying to make it more "readable", and 90% of the time was wasted, since about 95% of my suggestions were summarily dismissed.

	25-01-2003 05:14									#87
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You want to see some really convoluted writing - check out the articles in this composition journal http://www.ncte.org/ccc/ex.html

I have to read that stuff in a rhetoric and composition class - messed up.

	25-01-2003 06:35									#88
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG if you are realy interested in make thing better, it might be better to mail dan personally

Actually, we had a poster rewrite the whole preview and mail it to Dan in a friendly way (this was after he had talked to Dan a few times). Dan dismissed the poor spelling, bad grammar and long winded nature of his preview as 'style'.

This has nothing to do with Igmoo vs Apoly. In fact, I don’t really care for Igmoo at all.

	09-02-2003 23:36									#89
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It's not a test tube, and it's not a beaker. It's a flask. To be specific, a slightly distorted version of an Erlenmeyer flask.

Now, as to who cares WHAT it is, that I won't even speculate on.

--Fred

	12-02-2003 17:18									#90
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quote: MarkG: the fact that someone posts in this thread doesnt make him an accurate representative of the audience of the article. our moo3 preview has generated over 100,000 pageviews. somehow taking the total of 250 posts on the comments threads as the opinion of the moajority of the audience doesnt sound the correct thing to do.

Well, let me add that Dan's writing is so bad that I read the apolyton forums for the first time in my life, registered with apolyton, posted here, just so I could criticise it. I bet most of the 30,000 other readers felt the same but didn't go as far. (i.e. 100,000pageviews / 6pages, *2 because most readers would have given up before the end).

Sorry, let me rewrite that in Dan style.

"Contemplating the agnostication developed within my coil, mortal be it or not, impelled upon me the urgent priority to contribute, or append an article with my own words as it were, a commentary upon matters pertaining to the situation. ... [snip]"

You ask for constructive criticism, here it is: (1) don't use any complicated words unless they're necessary. Hint: they're not. (2) Never let a sentence contain more than one idea. If it contains two ideas, then split it into two sentences. (3) There's rarely need to use a complicated sentence structure. (4) While the game-designers needed to know precise details of the learning curve, that information is not relevant in a preview except as a one-paragraph summary. So, Dan, don't expose us in such excruciating detail to your own learning curve. (5) When writing a preview of a strategy game, play the game through at least once from start to finish before writing the preview. (6) Remove all comments about you personally, and about the general process of sitting at a computer and playing a game, and about the general process of sitting at a computer and writing a review, because no one cares.

Most importantly: (7) Stick to plain concrete descriptions of what stuff is in the game, of how it works. Only once you've played the game through at least once have you earned the right to give evaluations. That's to say, your evaluations are worthless until then.

--
Lucian