25-01-2003 03:25									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I don't think the Cuban exiles will have that much influence, but I think they very well may try to sabotage the current government there.

A little sabotage goes a long way.

	25-01-2003 03:31									#32
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They've been sabotaging the current government since 1959.

	25-01-2003 03:39									#33
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"The difference between a capitalist economy and a communist economy is not the level of income disparity, but the ownership of the means of production"

Nope.

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."

	25-01-2003 03:40									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There are people in South Florida who think they are the next government of Cuba. I wish we could get rid of them, but I'd hate to fob them off on someone else. . . . Maybe we can send them to Afganistan!

All Afganistan needs to solve their problems is a steady stream of cheap rum and Gloria Estefan CDs. Kabul could be the next Miami.

	25-01-2003 03:54									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They've been sabotaging the current government since 1959.

Not very effectively. It'll be different when they're suddenly showing up in Havana with briefcases full of U.S. currency and making sure the things they've been paying to get done all these years are actually getting done now. A lot of that money has just disappeared over the years.

	25-01-2003 04:00									#36
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Monkspider hit the nail on the head. Most people don't know what actual Communism/Socialism is, so when they see a situation like this, they get confused. It's hard to know what an ideology stands for when your government has been demonizing it with over 60 years worth of propaganda.

	25-01-2003 05:50									#37
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Commies always demand "cutting slack" for their own kind, but give absolutely none of that to their opponents.

Ex: Why do you satanize the Cuban opposition so much? (I'm not saying they are preferrable to Castro, mind you).

And btw, when are they going to allow free elections? Probably they would just re-elect Castro 'til he dies, granted, so what's the big fear?

	25-01-2003 07:59									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK The biggest problem that Cuba faces is economic sanctions from the US. The Communist system works very well there otherwise. Everyone works and they have eveything they need. In that respect you could say they do much better than we do in the United States. Raul Castro may use market reform to improve relations with the United States, but I wouldn't expect a complete transition to Capitalism in Cuba because the people there are happy with things the way they are.

Hmm-- sanctions are the biggest problem there-- it is just tougher and more expensive when they have to import goods from more distant places and no access to the US marketplace is huge

The people there do seem relatively content-- people are fairly highly educated and health care is good but there is one major class division. people that work in the tourist service industry are noticeably better off than people in other industries (Pay and tips in US currency makes the difference)

But it is a beautiful country and probably the only close tourist destination that is not overrun with Americans. I really liked the multicultural flavor of the tourist industry

	25-01-2003 08:03									#39
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Another point

capitalism has existed in Cuba for quite some time. Most of the hotels are joint ventures between the government and foreign companies -- Spanish, Canadian, german etc

I also met a young woman from Edmonton that had lived there a few years as the owner/operator of a pizza shop and diving shop. She indicated that even though it was technically a "joint venture", the government did not interfere and the risk of profit and loss was pretty much all on her

	25-01-2003 08:28									#40
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There are people in South Florida who think they are the next government of Cuba. I wish we could get rid of them, but I'd hate to fob them off on someone else. . . . Maybe we can send them to Afganistan!

Yeah, Are we still sending the B-52s on missions over there?

	25-01-2003 09:11									#41
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quote: Originally posted by JCG Ex: Why do you satanize the Cuban opposition so much? (I'm not saying they are preferrable to Castro, mind you).

They were Batista's National Guard. They murdered and tortured tens of thousands of people. Since they were driven out, they have killed hundreds more from their bases in South Florida. There is one well know terrorist who blew up a Cuban airliner killing 87 people who is walking around Miami today.

quote: And btw, when are they going to allow free elections? Probably they would just re-elect Castro 'til he dies, granted, so what's the big fear?

They have free elections, up to a point. Cuban democracy works differently. Each level of government is elected by the level below it. Everyone votes in the local elections, the local governments elect regional governments, etc. Where it stops being democratic is that after the local level, you must be a member of the Communist Party to stand for election.

In this type of government, each layer is directly beholden to the one below it, so if it does not carry out the tasks it has been charged with, it is much easier to deal with, than say as in Arizona, where it takes a recall election to remove a corrupt governor (or three). On the other hand, it removes a direct relationship between the top and bottom.

Castro, however, spends a great deal of his time meeting with lower branches and gets his ear chewed a lot. Far from being a nation in fear of Castro, many Cubans have an opportunity to complain directly to the head of the repbulic and they take advantage of it. He is also more than willing to criticize the government and himself. You are probably very correct that he would win in open direct national elections (and I'm sure the Cuban government knows this). So you have to wonder if maybe the way they have things arranged works very well.

Black Dragon, While "From each according to his ability, to each acording to his need" is the goal of communist society, no Communist led government has yet claimed to be communist. At best they have always claimed to be socialist or in Cuba's case, building socialism. Socialist society still carries with it the shape of capitalism from which it was born, and inequity will still exist until society is so productive that differences in pay are meaningless.

	25-01-2003 09:24									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There is one well know terrorist who blew up a Cuban airliner killing 87 people who is walking around Miami today.

Thank you, George Herbert Walker Bush!

	25-01-2003 09:32									#43
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Yep, director of the CIA at the time of the bombing.

	25-01-2003 14:15									#44
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"They have free elections, up to a point. Cuban democracy works differently. Each level of government is elected by the level below it. Everyone votes in the local elections, the local governments elect regional governments, etc. Where it stops being democratic is that after the local level, you must be a member of the Communist Party to stand for election."

And because of that you can't call it a democratic government at all.

"In this type of government, each layer is directly beholden to the one below it, so if it does not carry out the tasks it has been charged with, it is much easier to deal with, than say as in Arizona, where it takes a recall election to remove a corrupt governor (or three). On the other hand, it removes a direct relationship between the top and bottom."

Like someone could actually take Castro out? Please. Theoretically in coomunist system it goes from a bottom up system, but the reality usually is that each layer bosses the level below it, with some autocratic thug or body of thugs at the top.

"Castro, however, spends a great deal of his time meeting with lower branches and gets his ear chewed a lot."

Sure, if a Pothole needs filled I am sure they hear it. But what if someones complaint is to free the political prisoners? There are always certain lines you can't cross in dictatorships. Recently for instance Castro went around with some referendum declaring the consitution untouchable it got 98% support or such(or maybe it was a petition that got 98% of the population). Do you think really think he is that supported? Castro is a thug and I doubt he would actually win a free election. If it was reasonably he would I am sure he would call one to give himself legitimacy.

	25-01-2003 17:56									#45
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quote: The people there do seem relatively content-- people are fairly highly educated and health care is good but there is one major class division. people that work in the tourist service industry are noticeably better off than people in other industries (Pay and tips in US currency makes the difference)

This is the biggest problem in Cuba right now. Schoolteachers are practicing prostitution to get access to tourist $, because their pay in pesos is only good to buy local products; if they want to have imported goods they have to have $. If the govt dosn't do some drastic changes to reverse that trend, socialism in Cuba will collapse once the US lifts the embargo, since those "people with the suitcases" will show up and buy everything and everyone. I don't know what can be done. Perhaps they should make tourists deposit all their $ on arrival and have them circulate only pesos, so that they government takes control of most foreign currency sources on the island. But this doesn't change the fact that a shop owner could make tons of money in pesos from tourists buying everything in much higher prices than the locals.

This reminds me of an issue of Asterix ("The Residence of Gods" IIRC), where the gaulish village was almost corrupt by the gold that Roman tourists were spending. Of course this was an allegory for the spoiled french tourist regions, but it still applies.

So, if you were in Fidel's shoes, what would you do?

	26-01-2003 04:54									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi And because of that you can't call it a democratic government at all.

A Democratic government has never existed just as a Communist government has never existed. You could go so far as to say they are the same thing.

	26-01-2003 05:49									#47
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Communism is about a more equal distribution of wealth in society, yes, but by no means is it a strict equality that ignores things like hard work and productive capacity.

In theory, yes. In practice, no.

Anyone who knows anything about economics knows that if you take away people's incentives they won't do shit.

	27-01-2003 01:53									#48
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn In theory, yes. In practice, no. Anyone who knows anything about economics knows that if you take away people's incentives they won't do shit.

Except in capitalism, the people who are paid the least do the most work, and the people who get paid the most, do the least work. If your theory were true, capitalism should have collapsed long ago.

	27-01-2003 02:26									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Except in capitalism, the people who are paid the least do the most work, and the people who get paid the most, do the least work. If your theory were true, capitalism should have collapsed long ago.

Why even use the word 'except.' You blew his theory out of the water

	27-01-2003 03:31									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker In an interview, Castro said a woman, a former teacher of Marxism, makes twice her former salary working in Cuba's biotech industry. He said she even makes more than Cuba's agricultural minister because she's more productive. Isn't people making varying incomes based on productive capacity a capitalist notion?

um
socialism - to each according to their work
communism - to each according to their needs

or so we were told.
so socialism means you work your ass off but you get paid for that more than a lazy bum (the only difference is that living off stocks and bonds means you are lazy bum)
communism meant that you could get a ferrari if you wanted one, actually if you felt like one. explained like that, we knew it's never going to happen

	27-01-2003 10:00									#51
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LaRusso,

Communism should provide more. It is a more advanced state of economy from Socialism.