24-01-2003 10:21									#31
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quote: Smilebit has some AWESOME graphics programmers though.

All the Sega development teams are awesome graphics programmers. I'd rank AM2 and Sonic Team above Smilebit, actually.

	24-01-2003 10:22									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten All the Sega development teams are awesome graphics programmers. I'd rank AM2 and Sonic Team above Smilebit, actually.

I didn't much care for Shenmue or Sonic Adventures graphically...

Shenmue was pretty good, 'specially for the DC, but they had over a year to spruce up Shenmue II for the Xbox and it looks like ass.

	24-01-2003 10:23									#33
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quote: How about actually TRYING to eliminate it. Dont use stupid names (Mario "Sunshine"), dont use cartoony graphics (Celda), and dont release anything of that sort.

You still haven't explained how to make a "mature" Mario game. Is Nintendo just supposed to abandon all of their franchises that can be labeled "kiddy"? How exactly are they supposed to make money that way?

	24-01-2003 10:25									#34
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I don't think Nintendo can do much of anything to escape the "kiddie" image.

ED and Metroid Prime didn't dent the kiddie image.

Nintendo's pretty much tagged with that for the rest of its life.

	24-01-2003 10:28									#35
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I have to hand it to the new management so far.

I guess the 14% marketshare numbers in December in the US scared them a little.

So now starting in February you get 1 free game with purchase.
They're launching a "Player's Choice" series with games like SSBM for $29.99

It's about time somebody *****slapped them and wake them up.

	24-01-2003 10:29									#36
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quote: Shenmue was pretty good, 'specially for the DC, but they had over a year to spruce up Shenmue II for the Xbox and it looks like ass.

Let's not speak of Shenmue II...

Virtua Fighter 4 is a good example of AM2 at the height of their skill.

	24-01-2003 10:32									#37
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Yep, I gotta agree with Asher. Nintendo has basically sealed its own fate here....

	24-01-2003 10:35									#38
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quote: Nintendo has basically sealed its own fate here....

How did Nintendo seal its fate? Its not their fault that the gaming public suddenly thinks that Mario is too "kiddie" to enjoy anymore. Nintendo has been screwed by factors beyond their control.

	24-01-2003 10:40									#39
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Not another stupid console war

*cover ears*

naaaaaanananananaaaa

	24-01-2003 10:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Its not their fault that the gaming public suddenly thinks that Mario is too "kiddie" to enjoy anymore. Nintendo has been screwed by factors beyond their control.

And they had NO part in it, right?

	24-01-2003 10:44									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten How did Nintendo seal its fate?

I don't think they've sealed their fate. Nintendo still posts profits, I think they will for many years to come, it just won't be as big of a force as it once was in the market place. It's sliding sideways in a market that's growing at record levels, and the PS2 and Xbox are conquering the new territory...

It's not necessarily bad, Nintendo's just made itself a niche company with some boneheaded decisions.

quote: Its not their fault that the gaming public suddenly thinks that Mario is too "kiddie" to enjoy anymore. Nintendo has been screwed by factors beyond their control.

Nintendo hasn't necessarily been screwed by factors beyond their control. They've facilitated it in many ways.

Remember when they got the blood removed from Mortal Kombat for the system?
They launched the Gamecube with purple as the main color.
They're strongly associated with Pokemon.
They named the latest Mario game "Super Mario Sunshine".
etc.

	24-01-2003 10:46									#42
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quote: And they had NO part in it, right?

I'm sorry, you are right. Nintendo should've foresaw in the '80's that the franchises they were creating (Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda) would be viewed as childish 20 years later. How shortsighted of them...

quote: They're strongly associated with Pokemon.

MS would pimp the hell out of Pokemon if they had it; it's a cash cow. I think the fact that Nintendo hasn't released a Pokemon game on the Gamecube yet shows how they've tried to lose the kiddy label. But since it hasn't worked, they might as well break out the Pokemon games and make as much cash off this generation as possible.

	24-01-2003 10:47									#43
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Another problem is Nintendo seems hesitant or incapable of creating killer franchises anymore.

They're relying on rehashes and trying to innovate in games (Metroid Prime) with an old franchise. Many players are put off by that kind of thing...

	24-01-2003 10:51									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: And they had NO part in it, right? I'm sorry, you are right. Nintendo should've foresaw in the '80's that the franchises they were creating (Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda) would be viewed as childish 20 years later. How shortsighted of them...

Oh please. As Asher has pointed out, Nintendo hasn't exactly avoided it. It IS possible to keep kiddy games without a kiddy system HOWEVER...Nintendo has completly failed.

	24-01-2003 10:56									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Remember when they got the blood removed from Mortal Kombat for the system?

That was stupid. I'll agree with you on this point.

quote: They launched the Gamecube with purple as the main color.

Now you're just being picky.

quote: They're strongly associated with Pokemon.

So? What would you do with a cash cow of such proportions?

	24-01-2003 10:56									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I'm sorry, you are right. Nintendo should've foresaw in the '80's that the franchises they were creating (Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda) would be viewed as childish 20 years later. How shortsighted of them...

It's not necessarily the franchises themselves that are considered kiddie...

Once Nintendo gave them a waterpack and a name appended with "Sunshine" they start being viewed as kiddie.

Once they make Zelda look like a saturday mornning cartoon it's viewed as kiddie.

Once they release these games for a purple console with a handle that looks like a Fisher-Price toy, they are viewed as kiddie...

quote: MS would pimp the hell out of Pokemon if they had it; it's a cash cow.

No kidding.
But MS also has always had a whole bunch of mature (ESRB that is) games from the start too. Nintendo doesn't have a lot. They've made an effort in it recently, with MP and ED, but it's too little too late to save the image...

And before someone brings up Conker -- that's a Rare game, and the sequel isn't going to be on the Gamecube...

	24-01-2003 10:59									#47
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quote: It IS possible to keep kiddy games without a kiddy system HOWEVER...Nintendo has completly failed.

No it's not. If the kiddie image already exists (as it did before the GC even launched), every "kiddy" game and action will be latched onto as more evidence for the preexisting view. How "kiddy" has the GC really been? Would the color of the console have been an issue if people weren't looking at it for proof of their kiddy accusations? How was Mario Sunshine anymore kiddy than every Mario game before it? It wasn't, but it fit the kiddy pattern and therefore became something it was not.

The only way Nintendo can loose the kiddy image is to either a) never make a game which can be construed as kiddy again (which eliminates almost all of Nintendo's franchises) or b) hope that the kiddy view will go away on its own. Nintendo can't do a) as it is financial suicide. So they have to hope that people will lose the stupid idea that Nintendo is for kids. I don't see that happening, so Nintendo is in some deep ****. It's a damn shame, but that's the way things are.

	24-01-2003 11:03									#48
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quote: No it's not.

MS has released plenty of "kiddy" games.

Blinx and Sneakers off the top of my head...

It didn't make the Xbox seem like a kiddy system.

Sony's made Sly Cooper and a bunch of other kids-games too, it's not a kids system...

The secret is variety...

quote: How "kiddy" has the GC really been?

That doesn't matter -- the image is here and it'll stick.

quote: How was Mario Sunshine anymore kiddy than every Mario game before it? It wasn't, but it fit the kiddy pattern and therefore became something it was not.

For some reason the waterpack made it seem very kiddy to a lot of people...plus it wasn't a very innovative game, it was actually a pretty cut & dry platformer. To me it says Nintendo paniced about sales and didn't give the game the time it needed to become a great game. It's merely good.

	24-01-2003 11:04									#49
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Of course the grand irony of all of this is out of the three console makers, Sony's the only one which required BMX XXX to be censored.

Nintendo and MS released the ones with nudity and swearing and all that.

	24-01-2003 11:09									#50
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At the moment, I'd rather play a "kiddy" game like Donkey Kong Country than move five hundred settlers forward one space for sixteen hours at a time.

	24-01-2003 11:11									#51
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quote: MS has released plenty of "kiddy" games. Blinx and Sneakers off the top of my head... It didn't make the Xbox seem like a kiddy system. Sony's made Sly Cooper and a bunch of other kids-games too, it's not a kids system... The secret is variety...

No, the secret is that the Xbox didn't begin life already labeled as a "kiddy" system like the GC did. MS can release "kiddy" games because no one is looking for them, ready to jump on them as evidence that the Xbox really is "kiddy".

Pokemon has been a double-edged sword for Nintendo. It salvaged the N64 and made Nintendo a ton of money, but it was also the source of the whole "kiddy" image. The backlash against Pokemon by teens ended up staining Nintendo itself with the "kiddy" image, which has become a self-fulfilling thing. Now, franchises like Mario (which is the same as it has always been) are being labeled "kiddy" and there's nothing Nintendo can do about it. Pokemon may have saved the N64, but it may end up destroying Nintendo in a way that no one could've foresaw...

quote: That doesn't matter -- the image is here and it'll stick.

That was my point all along. The "kiddy" image is beyond Nintendo's control, so it's stupid to blame it on them.

	24-01-2003 11:13									#52
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quote: That was my point all along. The "kiddy" image is beyond Nintendo's control, so it's stupid to blame it on them.

They got the kiddy image mostly from their own actions in previous years before the Gamecube, IMO.

	24-01-2003 11:19									#53
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quote: They got the kiddy image mostly from their own actions in previous years before the Gamecube, IMO.

Yeah, they got the kiddy image by selling Pokemon games, which suddenly became the "it" thing for teens to hate. But how was Nintendo supposed to see that coming? How were they supposed to know that one game series would end up tainting all their most beloved franchises? They only saw Pokemon as the cash cow it was and didn't see the unintended consequences it would have...

	24-01-2003 20:19									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 How about actually TRYING to eliminate it. Dont use stupid names (Mario "Sunshine"), dont use cartoony graphics (Celda), and dont release anything of that sort.

Why is that bad? It is a market not touched by any of the competitors. When I play games, I want to have fun, not to be snobby.

	24-01-2003 20:25									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Why is that bad?

Well, for one, everyone is meeting their targets but Nintendo.

When the Gamecube launched, they said they'd have 16M sold by March 2003 (end of their fiscal year), then they changed it to 10M, and it looks like they're only going to get 8.5-9M. It's also losing steam compared to the competition in any market but Japan.

It sucks to be relegated to a niche market in a huge industry, especially when Nintendo is capable of so much more.

If Nintendo was more aware of this, they could have released great games as well as trying to ease the "kiddie" label.

Remember the first Super Mario Sunshine commercials...the slogan was "Clean good, dirty bad!"

	24-01-2003 20:32									#56
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For the first time ever, an Xbox game is #1 in Japan (Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball).

People are even lining up to get it!

	24-01-2003 20:36									#57
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So MS has finally woken up to the Japanese obsession with scantily-clad virtual women...

	24-01-2003 20:38									#58
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That would explain why MS paid for Tecmo's marketing budget for the game, and it was a large one at that.

	24-01-2003 20:41									#59
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I think MS should go all out and start making dating-sims.

	24-01-2003 22:58									#60
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Hey, I liked the name "Super Mario Sunshine"!
But I agree, PS3 is almost certainly going to suck. The next round of consoles should be interesting. XBOX should be stronger, Playstation weaker, and Nintendo an enigmatic wild card.