25-01-2003 00:55									#61
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As opposed to let them be oppressed indefinitely by Hussein and whatever successor (Uday, Quinsay, or whoever) he chooses?

Leaving a sovereign country to its own is preferable to attacking it and killing its people, yes.

quote: These kids won't fight - they'd hide, or break and run, or surrender at first opportunity.

You don't know this. Wasn't one of the main justifications for a-bombing Japan that every man, woman and child would fight a land invasion? Didn't our troops have to fight kids on Okinawa as young as 10?

Young kids can fight tenaciously if they want. And if it's in defense of their country, I bet they will.

quote: And just because some murderous bastard uses kids and others as human shields to perpetuate his own grip on power doesn't mean we have to let him remain in power.

So long as he isn't acting aggressively towards us, yes we do. That goes back to the whole thing about what right we have to invade sovereign nations thingy.

	25-01-2003 00:56									#62
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quote: Yes, we should let Hussein's use of 12 year olds as forced cannon fodder dictate that he remain in power unhindered. That makes perfect sense.

I didn't say that. The premise of this thread is "gee Iraq is conscripting 12 year olds, we have to stop them!" Which is an absurd argument for war.

	25-01-2003 00:57									#63
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MtG, Yes, they're only kids, they'll get so afraid when the real deal starts. They don't know what's going on for sure, and freeze up and cry. Maybe some of them grows to be brave warriors, but majority of them are just too afraid to think anything else.

What happens after this? Every nations starts to put their kids to arms? It can not be used as a weapon.

	25-01-2003 00:58									#64
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Ramo, well, isn't that against international laws? Doesn't it show the nature of their leader, making it more obvious he should be removed?

	25-01-2003 00:59									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So long as he isn't acting aggressively towards us, yes we do. That goes back to the whole thing about what right we have to invade sovereign nations thingy.

He gave up his sovereign right when he backed out of agreements HE made. But that's a whole different argument, and I'm sure you can find other threads that discuss that topic... there are many of them

	25-01-2003 01:06									#66
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quote: Leaving a sovereign country to its own is preferable to attacking it and killing its people, yes.

you sound like David Floyd.

say, are taxes theft?

	25-01-2003 01:09									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel you sound like David Floyd.

Sometimes Floyd is right. What's your point?

I'll continue on that track with Ming's statement: Ming, he made those agreements under duress, so I don't think that's good enough reason.

	25-01-2003 01:17									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I'll continue on that track with Ming's statement: Ming, he made those agreements under duress,

Why is that relevent? Or do you believe that the UK is still at war with Germany & Italy?

	25-01-2003 01:23									#69
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He just want's to turn every thread into a war protest thread... He just seems to support all of Saddams actions, even when Saddam wants to hide behind children

	25-01-2003 01:27									#70
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Ban hum!

	25-01-2003 01:27									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Leaving a sovereign country to its own is preferable to attacking it and killing its people, yes.

Since when is Iraq a sovereign country? Historically, there's been a Caliphate of Baghdad, and it's been somebody or another's turf in one empire after another, but the modern Iraqi state was an arbitrary administrative creation of the British empire, handed over to an impotent "King" who was murdered by a dictator who was murdered by Hussein.

Even if we decide Iraq is somehow "sovereign," since the Iraqi people have no choice as to their ruler or his policies, why should we give a rat's ass about him and his "government?"

quote: You don't know this. Wasn't one of the main justifications for a-bombing Japan that every man, woman and child would fight a land invasion? Didn't our troops have to fight kids on Okinawa as young as 10?

There's a huge cultural difference, backed by centuries of Japanese history, compared to the record of Iraq's prior wars.

quote: Young kids can fight tenaciously if they want. And if it's in defense of their country, I bet they will.

It's not in "defense of their country" - it's in defense of a feared and loathed *******. And Iraqi adults were quite happy to surrender at first opportunity, so I'm sure they'll lead the way for these kids, too.

Besides, there's no such thing as being "tenacious" with an AK-47 against an M1-A2 Abrams.

quote: So long as he isn't acting aggressively towards us, yes we do. That goes back to the whole thing about what right we have to invade sovereign nations thingy.

We have whatever right we choose to have. The whole "sovereign nations thingy" is a matter of arbitrary judgment.

	25-01-2003 01:29									#72
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Yeah, I can definitely see your point Boris.
I just disagree that this move by Saddam is acceptable.
And to ask if we would do the same in that situation is like ask if we would eat each other if there was no food.
US is not after genocide of Iraqi people, so there is no reason to put children fight for a rotten dictator.

I ask again, why Saddam won't just send these kid to a safe place. If no one wants them, then ask for help from red cross, anyone to put up a site, refugee camp that allows only kids and women, to some remote location in Iraq, and it would be protected, and not attacked. It's clear that these kids won't do anything good to Iraqi defense. So why not just save them? It is possible. Put up a refugee camp himself and send the kids there. The US wouldn't bomb them.

	25-01-2003 01:30									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Ban hum!

No! Hums must stay!

And Ming, what an asinine comment...this is a thread specifically about the war, so why shouldn't I express my opinion that I don't support the war? Duuuuuhhhhh!

And not wanting a war isn't supporting Saddam's actions. Or maybe I can say you support Mugabe's actions because you're not calling for war on him?

	25-01-2003 01:34									#74
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Boris, don't worry, I for one don't consider you as pro-Saddam for not wanting the war. And I do agree that we need to go after Mugabe and other 'leaders' as well.

	25-01-2003 01:36									#75
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One dictatorial ******* at a time.

Although, maybe could detach a company of Marines and an Airborne company to take care of the Zimbabwean "army" while we're in the general neighborhood.

	25-01-2003 01:42									#76
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Azazel, sure. Stalin killed 25'000'000 people (ordered these killings). Hitler killed some 5 or 10 million less. This is not counting people died because of bad economic conditions, which could raise Stalin's number up to 35'000'000. Those stats are without WW2 casualties. In most times wrong statistics are given, with attributing all WW2 casualties to Hitler, while in fact both states were equally responsible for signing the pact. Also, many casualties of WW2 had nothing to do with neither Hitler neither Stalin (Hiroshima and Pearl Harbor for example). Thus it is better to count casualties without WW2.

	25-01-2003 01:48									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Azazel, sure. Stalin killed 25'000'000 people (ordered these killings).

Those who've studied the archives put the deaths attributable to Stalin in the single digit millions, including famine, execution, and dying in prison.

quote: Hitler killed some 5 or 10 million less.

Hitler created a system which murdered 10 million people and started a war which murdered 50 million. Even the largest estimates of Stalin's murder are only half as much.

	25-01-2003 01:52									#78
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Chegitz: The global hegemony this is why it is important to not let Saddam get Nukes. In order to be able to fight the war on Terrorism, we need to have hegemony over the Middle East to respond to whatever may occur there unhindered.

	25-01-2003 01:57									#79
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Of course dying in prisons should count for Stalin. Or otherwise dying in concentration camps wouldn't count to Hitler also. Stalin's prisons were actually worse than concentration camps, they were built in places where temperature falls to -50 C and -60 C and weren't heated.

Yes, Hitler murdered 10 million and that is much less than Stalin's death count. Again, both sides were responsible for war and some more countries also were (Japan as an example, which attacked USA and also USA itself for dropping nuke, etc. Also, UK, for bombarding undefended German cities like Dresden. All war casualties should be divided on partyicipated nations by number of people they killed, probably only civilians should be counted since killing soldiers is a normal ting in war).

	25-01-2003 02:05									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Stalin's prisons were actually worse than concentration camps, they were built in places where temperature falls to -50 C and -60 C and weren't heated.

Wrong, most people left the gulag system alive. Only during the world war did large numbers of prisoners die, and that's because the USSR's resources were stretched to the breaking point. When people in Leningrad are reduced to eating corpses, no tears will be shed for thieves and murderers in prison.

quote: Yes, Hitler murdered 10 million

No, you mathless fool, he killed SIXTY MILLION! Ten million in camps, fifty million by war. 10,000,000 + 50,000,000 = 60,000,000.

quote: and that is much less than Stalin's death count.

Most whacko estimates of Stalin's deaths, 30,000,000. 30,000,000 !> 60,000,000. Where did you learn math? Educated estimates of Stalin's death toll is under ten million for all sources. For executions alone it's less than a million.

	25-01-2003 02:08									#81
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So you chegitz can't count, re-read two times what I said about WW2 in both posts.

	25-01-2003 02:13									#82
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The opinion that the starter of war is responsible for ALL deaths is absolutely wrong. That would mean that if USA would now declare war on Iraq and Saddam would use chemical weapons somewhere in New York killing like 100'000 people, Bush would be responsible for that...

	25-01-2003 02:47									#83
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If the US were facing an invasion of overwhelming odds, that we had no chance of winning, anyone who was capable of holding a gun and aiming would be trained to do so while we still had time. As inneffective as twelve year old children are, there are times when you sacrifice everything. We'd do it. I see no reason to excoriate the Iraqis for doing the same. In an ideal world, children would never be soldiers. In an ideal world, the US wouldn't be preparing to invade Iraq.

I don't believe this for a second, even though that is exactly what happened in the Mel Gibson movie the Patriot.

	25-01-2003 02:51									#84
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???

We are already trained to use a gun the minute you can hold it. Didn't they teach you that in high school? Weird... I always why the guy teaching the class had a shaved head, smoked, and told us not to tell anyone about his "little secret". Anyway...

I like the idea of making the kids fight, maybe not with the guns. This idea is better then the "put the leaders of the nations in a ring and let them duke it out". Maybe it could be a dodgeball competition or something. If not, I say we round up those kids from N. Idaho who held off the cops with their attack dogs.

	25-01-2003 02:58									#85
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Same situation? Our 12 year olds already have guns in their hands. I've had a gun since I was 6. Oh, wait, not all of you are from the Oklahoma-Texas area are you?

Nope, the poor lot of 'em sure aint

	25-01-2003 03:01									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic So you chegitz can't count, re-read two times what I said about WW2 in both posts.

Hitler is responsible for the bombing Germany. If he hadn't started the war then we wouldn't have needed to bomb Germany in order to defeat it.

If Hussein somehow managed to smuggle chem weapons into NYC and they somehow managed to kill as many people as you state, it would be slightly different, as it would have no outcome on the the war. A terrorist attack on the US would not deter nor nor harm the US's ability to make war upon Iraq. However, since the event would not have occurred if Bush hadn't decided he wanted to invaded Iraq, he would indeed be responsible for the deaths of those New Yorkers killed by Hussein's chem attack.

	25-01-2003 03:07									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I read about this today, or yesterday. I even have a picture of it, but I don't know how to post a picture. What do you think of this? These kids were 12 years old. Now, this is NOT a sign to NOT attack. This is sign to attack fast! What kind of a leader puts its own children to front lines? A leader who needs to be changed, pronto.

hi ,

come to the middle east , ..... most totalirian regimes in the arab world do it , ...

have a nice day

	25-01-2003 03:11									#88
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quote: Young kids can fight tenaciously if they want. And if it's in defense of their country, I bet they will.

that is unfortunate for the poor chums... going up against superbly trained, heavily armed, body armored US crack troops, but I agree with MtG. Afer they see their little friends get blown away, they will run off and cry and hide before too many are killed. sad. no child should have to fight and die. And whats more sad is Saddam is gonna exploit it first chance he gets, "The americans are slaughtering our children! The evil american bastards...".

He is such a ****hole

	25-01-2003 03:15									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And Ming, what an asinine comment...this is a thread specifically about the war, so why shouldn't I express my opinion that I don't support the war? Duuuuuhhhhh!

Gee, what a stupid and ignorant response

If you had bothered to read my response instead of just doing your typical non thinking knee jerk reaction, you would see that the point was that are other threads where you can specifically talk about whether the war is right or not. And that this thread is about a different subject.

So next time... read

	25-01-2003 03:40									#90
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Sonic Stalin's prisons were actually worse than concentration camps, they were built in places where temperature falls to -50 C and -60 C and weren't heated. Wrong, most people left the gulag system alive. Only during the world war did large numbers of prisoners die, and that's because the USSR's resources were stretched to the breaking point. When people in Leningrad are reduced to eating corpses, no tears will be shed for thieves and murderers in prison. quote: Yes, Hitler murdered 10 million No, you mathless fool, he killed SIXTY MILLION! Ten million in camps, fifty million by war. 10,000,000 + 50,000,000 = 60,000,000. quote: and that is much less than Stalin's death count. Most whacko estimates of Stalin's deaths, 30,000,000. 30,000,000 !> 60,000,000. Where did you learn math? Educated estimates of Stalin's death toll is under ten million for all sources. For executions alone it's less than a million.

hi ,

according to the former KGB its more , .....

have a nice day