27-01-2003 02:21									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka guns make peace. Cows only makes people fat. Choice is obvious.

Yes, for world peace McDonalds should sell guns instead of burgers.

	27-01-2003 02:23									#32
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quote: The probem is, the reason archons. in the US can say: "who gives a damn about Europe" is that to them, diplomacy is a game of counting Bombers.

Militarising the EU will involves more than just upping spending. That's the easy part. It will radically redefine the entire concept of the EU. That's what these whiners don't understand.

The traditionally neutral countries of Europe must decide where their loyalties lie.

The assorted command structures must be united, eliminating the last vestiges of real state independence.

The generally pacifistic culture of the EU must become more militaristic. It's no longer united in peace, but united in war.

quote: Of course that canīt be our goal. But more modern, more mobile forces are certainly. Maybe not for Britain, but Germany hadnīt even enough air transport capacity to transport its own peacekeepers to Afghanistan. A good part of the Bundeswehr has only crap as equipment. OTOH we store ca. 5000 Leopard tanks waiting for WWIII. I donīt say we should have everything the USA has, but our current forces arenīt much useful for conflicts today.

OF course that's sensible, but I doubt the Americans are going to stop complaining if the transport capability improves.

	27-01-2003 02:24									#33
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"of course the US doesn't want to see europe as equal."

Equality really isn't on the table. The EU would have to invest more than 4% of its economy in defense to catch up. We're having trouble even jawboning Europe to 1.5%.

	27-01-2003 02:25									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel "Europe" is far from being a superstate, and until it is one, there is no way it could influence global politics in it's full force. Instead of one concentrated effort, you get 25 little arrows pointing in different, sometimes opposite directions.

I believe that is what is called 'dynamic leadership'.

	27-01-2003 02:27									#35
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Ther is also one other reason that Europe is loath to remilitarize. Russia.

	27-01-2003 02:29									#36
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Hmmm, interesting that we're basically debating whether the US would like to have a rival and how tha would balance things. I'm taking an internationl relations course (it focuses on the US's role) and it seems that there is a large contigent of people that believe a Bi-Polar world is much more enviable than a hegemonic or multi-polar. That's kind of what we're debating here. Should the EU become the other half? Are top offificials instigating this to make it natural that there are two worlds - the capitalist America which threatens and the socialist Europe which negotiates?

I don' think I'd go so far as to call it a conspirancy but it does appear that unless an Asian country is more successfull at influencing nations or Russia gets itself together, Europe is the only other place where there could be enough concerted effort at becoming a rival to the US. Not just a rival, but a rival with some chance at being at least if not more powerful.

	27-01-2003 02:34									#37
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Why on Earth would Europe be a rival? Haven't y'all heard about a division of labor? Teamwork. You know, an alliance?

We're trying to make this alliance credible.

	27-01-2003 02:36									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Militarising the EU will involves more than just upping spending. That's the easy part. It will radically redefine the entire concept of the EU. That's what these whiners don't understand. The traditionally neutral countries of Europe must decide where their loyalties lie. The generally pacifistic culture of the EU must become more militaristic. It's no longer united in peace, but united in war.

Europe has seen enough of war, that is what YOU fail to see.

The Union of Europe IS united in peace, that is the sole reason for the EU. It will not permit its union is going to be a union of war.

Thank god for all those traditional neutral countries in Europe that are keeping the large warmongering powers in check...

I don't see what is wrong with a European Union committed to peace and prosperity.

	27-01-2003 02:38									#39
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The fact that a lot of countries aren't committed to peace and prosperity sort of throws a spanner in that vision.

	27-01-2003 02:41									#40
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Europe has seen enough of war, that is what YOU fail to see. The Union of Europe IS united in peace, that is the sole reason for the EU. It will not permit its union is going to be a union of war. Thank god for all those traditional neutral countries in Europe that are keeping the large warmongering powers in check... I don't see what is wrong with a European Union committed to peace and prosperity.

Sorry, I think I misjudged the tone of my post. I do agree with you. The 'whiners' are the Americans who accuse Europe of not pulling having enough weapons. I'm just outlining some of the barriers to this.

	27-01-2003 02:41									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson The fact that a lot of countries aren't committed to peace and prosperity sort of throws a spanner in that vision.

I would say that since so many nations are committed to peace and prosperity the policies of aggression and domination have outlived themselves.

	27-01-2003 02:44									#42
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Not as long as there is aggression in reality. It would be nice to have peace everywhere, but that isnīt the case currently, and it will not change in the near future.

	27-01-2003 02:48									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson The fact that a lot of countries aren't committed to peace and prosperity sort of throws a spanner in that vision.

I don't see how and/or why So far the EU has a long histoty of avoiding any involvement in any conflict, so...?


Sandman: apparently I indeed misunderstood the tone of your post

	27-01-2003 02:48									#44
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The very point that I myself was just about to make. It's all well and good being peaceful, but when others aren't then sitting around twiddling your thumbs isn't really a realistic option.

	27-01-2003 02:52									#45
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there seems to be differences between realists and idealists

I erpsonally think that US-EU relatships would be a lot better if you had a bigger military

just because we would respect you more

currently it is
EU whine
US ignore
UE act

relationship sours

if EU had military
EU disagree with US
US listen
US respond to EU

relationship holds

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 02:55									#46
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quote: Originally posted by germanos I don't see how and/or why So far the EU has a long histoty of avoiding any involvement in any conflict, so...?

One could also say: we had luck that open war wasnīt an option between the superpowers back in the good old days, when it was called Cold War. But things have changed since that time a bit. And then Europe got involved - first gulf war, on the balkan...

	27-01-2003 03:04									#47
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"I believe that is what is called 'dynamic leadership'."

They can call it Aunt Mary's Hairy Ass for all I care, it still remains a non-functional model for running foreign affairs. That is, if you want to have a single geo-political entity/position at all.

	27-01-2003 03:05									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller there seems to be differences between realists and idealists I erpsonally think that US-EU relatships would be a lot better if you had a bigger military just because we would respect you more currently it is EU whine US ignore UE act relationship sours if EU had military EU disagree with US US listen US respond to EU relationship holds Jon Miller

US listen..

Let me try to explain why and how the EU got where it is now:

France disagrees with Germany
both have army
non of them listens
War

Britain disagrees with France
both have Navy
non of them listens
War

etc.

Then, finally, some people with brains get something to say
people with brains listen
they agree to cooperate, so they can avoid war


The EU, nor any of its predesessors were EVER meant to challenge the USA, nor any other power for that matter: it was founded to try to find a different way to overcome differences.

quote: US respond to EU

most likely it will be a militairy response.

	27-01-2003 03:08									#49
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Can we see some real responses and not chest-thumping and groaning about how much the EU has contributted to world peace?

	27-01-2003 03:17									#50
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro One could also say: we had luck that open war wasnīt an option between the superpowers back in the good old days, when it was called Cold War. But things have changed since that time a bit. And then Europe got involved - first gulf war, on the balkan...

Sure Europe gets involved: that is what the whole debate is about, isn't it?
Only, the EU wishes to get involved in another way/matter then the US. If you claim (I don't know if you do) that militairy dorce is the only way to get involved, then you hit the nail right on the head: Europe thinks differently.


Things have NOT changed one bit since the Cold War! As soon as nuclear powers are involved (Pakistan and North Korea, to mention two countries that are 'appeased' by the US, although they do pose a real thread to the US) cold war mechanics take over.

Europe certainly got involved in the liberation of Quwait, but that was a UN sanctioned action. The same goes to a lesser degree for the Balkan.

	27-01-2003 03:21									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Can we see some real responses and not chest-thumping and groaning about how much the EU has contributted to world peace?

My god, you are a bore.

I'm not saying ANYTHING about EU contribution to world peace, I am only stating that the EU has done a wonderfull job in keeping peace and prosperity in EUROPE itself.

And I do beleive it is quite an achievement

	27-01-2003 03:43									#52
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Sure Europe gets involved: that is what the whole debate is about, isn't it? Only, the EU wishes to get involved in another way/matter then the US. If you claim (I don't know if you do) that militairy dorce is the only way to get involved, then you hit the nail right on the head: Europe thinks differently.

Well, peace is certainly a noble goal, and, no, I donīt claim that a military solution is the only way in every situation. But the point is that sometimes this may be your last option - then only thinking isnīt enough, acting is what matters, and this can include military action.

And I would be glad if Europe would really think that differently - the truth is that we are far away from a real European foreign policy. In many cases, the national interests of European countries are an obstacle for such a common policy.

quote: Europe certainly got involved in the liberation of Quwait, but that was a UN sanctioned action. The same goes to a lesser degree for the Balkan.

But your position was initially that we found other ways "to overcome differences" - implying that military action is bad in any case? However, the NATO air strikes on the Balkan took place completely without UN mandate - so talking about Europe avoiding conflicts is not the complete story.

I do think that Europe plays indeed a positive role in the world today, but I donīt think that we are Saints while the rest are evil warmongers - thatīs a bit too simple.

	27-01-2003 03:48									#53
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro And I would be glad if Europe would really think that differently - the truth is that we are far away from a real European foreign policy. In many cases, the national interests of European countries are an obstacle for such a common policy.

In this sense, I must confess that my country, Spain is doing nothing to improve the unity of Europeans' foreign policies

	27-01-2003 03:52									#54
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Suppose the combined EU was an effective military force that was on a par with the capabilities of US.

How would that reign in the US? Take the example here of Iraq?

The only intervention I could see being applied is against states such as Saudi Arabia or Kuwait, telling them not to give the US bases. I doubt the EU would do that, and using the new found military to stop them would seem silly.

If the US is commited to doing something, how is a militarily strong Europe going to stop them?

	27-01-2003 04:11									#55
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The other option as i see it (not I am necessarily advocating this) is for the EU to withdraw from NATO, kindly ask the US army to leave all its bases in Europe, and become nice and isolationist. Most of the **** we get atm is because we're associated too much with the US.

The US thinks were not pulling our weight, the Arab countries think we're lap dogs of the US and as such despise us by association.

Set up a relatively small pan-European army for possible peace keeping in the general vicinity of Europe, when asked by the people of the country in question, but keep out of stuff that is not really any of our business (Israel-Palestine, China-Tibet, Pakistan-India etc.). If the Americans want to sort it out let them...

Other possiblity is to get a UN army, funded by and consisting of all member states that will be the only military force allowed to enter other countries without being in breach of the rules.

Just a few other possiblities...

	27-01-2003 04:13									#56
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro The truth is that we are far away from a real European foreign policy. In many cases, the national interests of European countries are an obstacle for such a common policy.

It is true that the various countries in the EU have different priorities, but that does not neccesarily mean that they work towards conflicting goals.

The Nordic countries have interests in the Baltic region as a prosperous area for trade. Therefore Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania were invited to the EU.
Germany have historically looked to the South Eastern parts of Europe to place excess capital. France are looking to develop the former colonies in Africa. Italy has been instrumental in getting acces to the Libyan oilfields. Spain and Portugal is the link to South America.

Sometimes there are perhaps conflicting interests, as for instance the former Yuguslavia. Also Poland seems to be the odd man out and a somewhat destabilizing force in the middle of the continent. Here a more united effort to assure countries of good intentions is probably the way forward.

Overall I think there should be some room for the nation states of Europe to develop ties with particlar nations as this will perhaps be a better way to develop the former communist countries and the former colonies.

this is the kind of system i would call 'dynamic'.

	27-01-2003 04:21									#57
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue The other option as i see it (not I am necessarily advocating this) is for the EU to withdraw from NATO, kindly ask the US army to leave all its bases in Europe, and become nice and isolationist. Most of the **** we get atm is because we're associated too much with the US. The US thinks were not pulling our weight, the Arab countries think we're lap dogs of the US and as such despise us by association. Set up a relatively small pan-European army for possible peace keeping in the general vicinity of Europe, when asked by the people of the country in question, but keep out of stuff that is not really any of our business (Israel-Palestine, China-Tibet, Pakistan-India etc.). If the Americans want to sort it out let them... Other possiblity is to get a UN army, funded by and consisting of all member states that will be the only military force allowed to enter other countries without being in breach of the rules. Just a few other possiblities...

well,., if you want to be iso, fine

but than don't be trying to force us to do things diplomatically

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 04:33									#58
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I don't think it is essential for the future international balance for Europe to become an international military / diplomatic superstar like the US is :

- AFAIK, all diplomatic problems in which Europe wants to get involved are near the European continent (Serbia, Israel, Arabic countries), or are still under Europe's direct influence (former French colonies). I don't remember Europe taking any active role, or even actively whining on matters such as East Timor or North Korea (while the US had a role).

- China is becoming an economic powerhouse, and will become a military/diplomacy powerhouse as well. If the treand continues, China should be on par with the US in a few decades, and the global equilibrium will be played across the pacific, with a very little role for Europe.

- Before raising military funds, Europe MUST have a coordinated foreign and military policy. Only once Europe speaks with one voice (you can wait quite some time before this, see how Blair happily follows the US in Iraq), we should raise our military budget.

- Europe has a pretty good Arsenal for its defense, and for intervention in its influence zone. Ground troops are many, and are critical in most peacekeeping operations in the world (you Americans can call this teamwork : you wage war - we build peace after), and there is a significant nuclear arsenal in Britain and France, insuring no major wars against Europe until Anti-missiles technologies are reliable and spread.

	27-01-2003 04:43									#59
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I think the EU would need an independent foreign policy when the US starts messing with its internatl policy.

So far the US tried to mess with european economics. So EU economy is unified and wins cases in the WTO all the time.


When there is an action there is a reaction, and there is no action from the part of the US.

Actually such action would speed up the EU foreign policy integration but what the heck.

	27-01-2003 13:46									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "of course the US doesn't want to see europe as equal." Equality really isn't on the table. The EU would have to invest more than 4% of its economy in defense to catch up. We're having trouble even jawboning Europe to 1.5%.

First, it would take 3-3.5 %, compared to the current 2 %. If we just wanted to we could build a US style military. Problem is, for what ? The US military is designed to bomb or destroy 3rd world countries at minimal losses of their own.

And it is bizarre that americans see equality as a function of total military power. Hell, even the North Koreans forced you to talk to them as equals and be all nice and cozy. Which leads to another point - Europe's much hyped military weakness is mostly political - just as the respective US weakness is political. Where's the invasion of Iran and North Korea?