03-02-2003 19:49									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I like the Arnelos idea, but I think it's premature at the moment.

We are all in REX at present. Let this phase end and let the pressure rise between ND and Lux. When a war would become unavoidable, then proceed as Arnelos suggested.

BTW, good analysis, jdjdjd.

	03-02-2003 20:33									#32
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Ok, many good points here... but what makes you think GoW will succeed in a war against Lux? What makes the GoW so supreme on the battlefield?

Lux could suddenly double their army size when they have to,
if they currently are rexing on unoccupied land and have a small army size now, they will be the most powerful later.
(if they are not sneak attacked by the two others)
Well, it's all speculations...

Lux should be noticed (by us) that their primary concern is NOT to get involved in a war with ND. Further, they should be noticed to bully the GoW instead.(write to them about GoWs treacherous behavious or something, and how nice ND have been to us)

Who knows... perhaps the ND will go bully GoW as well ?
And if we don't bully anyone just now, and starts some serious rexing... and diplomacy towards ND, we can bully them later and win!

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 03-02-2003 at 20:38

	04-02-2003 05:42									#33
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Question: Where is Neu Dem settling over the next 8 turns?

I need the best answer we can get to this question, and I need it soon. In 8 turns, our silk city will be established and our "need" for a border agreement with Neu Dem will have ended. Should we found that city and should there be no Neu Dem settler group moving south, it would be my opinion that we do not need a settlement agreement with Neu Dem, and I would drop the policy entirely.

Please, do what you can in your talks with ND, Lux, and GoW to find out what you can about Neu Dem's CURRENT settlements ... how recently have they build their last city? How much land do they still have to fill?

This is urgent. Talks are tentatively scheduled for Wednesday with Neu Dem. When I go into chat with them, I want to have some idea how strong our position should be and how much I should argue for the fullest extent of land possible.

--Togas

	04-02-2003 08:10									#34
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Right, I hear both Milord and Senor Clemente. Tomorrow afternoon, at the next possible occasion, I believe, I shall contact them to inform them of the fact that I can't make the settlement deal, and to deliver all that Milord and Senor Clemente wish to have delivered.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	04-02-2003 20:39									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Question: Where is Neu Dem settling over the next 8 turns? I need the best answer we can get to this question, and I need it soon. In 8 turns, our silk city will be established and our "need" for a border agreement with Neu Dem will have ended. Should we found that city and should there be no Neu Dem settler group moving south, it would be my opinion that we do not need a settlement agreement with Neu Dem, and I would drop the policy entirely. Please, do what you can in your talks with ND, Lux, and GoW to find out what you can about Neu Dem's CURRENT settlements ... how recently have they build their last city? How much land do they still have to fill? This is urgent. Talks are tentatively scheduled for Wednesday with Neu Dem. When I go into chat with them, I want to have some idea how strong our position should be and how much I should argue for the fullest extent of land possible. --Togas

I think that Imperial City produced a settler in 1990BC. If it headed SW, it will be on the silk around 2710BC.

	04-02-2003 20:42									#36
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you mean 1710?

	04-02-2003 20:52									#37
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You mean that the silk could have produced a settler which would be heading toward ND ?

I cant believe it !

	04-02-2003 20:54									#38
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat you mean 1710?

Right. Sorry.

	04-02-2003 21:05									#39
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Nice DAVOUT, a very useful thing to know. b:
I guess we can be there ahead of them ?

	05-02-2003 00:53									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I think that Imperial City produced a settler in 1990BC. If it headed SW, it will be on the silk around 2710BC.

I hope that they're this stupid

Unfortunately, this stretches the boudaries of even GhengisFarb's considerable imcomptence

	05-02-2003 08:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I think that Imperial City produced a settler in 1990BC. If it headed SW, it will be on the silk around 2710BC.

A gift of two free workers for our Despot!

	06-02-2003 06:50									#42
	Some Analysis & Conjectures after the ND chat Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Item: Lux is pressuring them into war against them.
Item: ND is afraid of GoW, if they go to war against Lux
Item: GF's claim that if someone isn't a part of this "tech alliance" then they are a target.
Item: We are far south and have a major Terrain feature between us and the north
Item: Lux has this Alliance with us, incase of being attacked
Item: Lux supposedly has Warriors camped out to ND's east, preventing them from settling in that direction.

This would go with some of the other things that have been going on. This Tech alliance that GoW talks about (to them) could be partly from them Bullying ND into it. ND feels that if they don't cooperate, then they won't be able to fight off both of them.

Item: Lux has contact with Vox (and possibly GS) and are acting as tech middle men.
Item: Lux Offered us a 2 for 1 tech deal in the past, even if they are at war.
Item: We really have no Idea how long Lux has had contact, but it can be assumed that it has been for a very long time.
Item: Lux doesn't want us to venture further north, it's now assumed so that we can be kept ingnorant of the contact & the situation up there
Item: Lux has placed a city between 2 of the ND cities (a threadening move in my book).
Item: All 3 are very close, so they would have very little in the way of Barbarians to get Money from.

If Lux has plans to take on ND, then they are best placed to remove them from the "tech alliance". If they are preparing for War, then they would be building their treasury up, so as to be able to upgrade a large group of Warriors/Chariots. This would require them to have a very low tech research rate. Their contacts with Vox and possibly ND would allow them to "fake" their own research efforts and try to hide this.

Item: GF's blustering is hiding some form of master plan. It's not entirely reasonable that their whole team is unaware of what he's been doing.
Item: GF claims that Lux is building up on ND's boarders.
Item: GoW has 60 gold to give us (one trade plan had 100) for Writing.
Item: GoW was really desparate to get Writing, but didn't want to show it by GF's blustering

With the possible lack of Barbs up north, were did they get the cash?? Are they profiting off of this "tech Alliance" and allowing everyone else to do their research for them?? They could also have their tech rate set very low, to accomplish this. We have been researching very hard and our Treasuries are now only up to a fair amount, but only through Barb kills.

Conjecture: ND will not last through to the Middle ages, unless they can settle south of the Jungle (a life boat of sorts).

Conjecture: Lux's price to sell contact with Vox and/or GS will be very high. They want to maintain that monopoly for as long as they can. This can be verified by doing an embassy with them to see what is their tech rate actually is.

Conjecture: Lux will pressure ND to the breaking point and ND will be forced to go to war against them. Lux will want that to happen while our Alliance is still active with them, trying to draw us into the conflict, or just to keep us from siding with ND.

Conjecture: GoW is making it, to were ND is going to have to turn to them, so they can "sell" their services for a huge price. THis boarder agreement could be part of it.


Conclusions: we still don't have all of the peices to the whole puzzle, but are getting a better picture of what is really going on up north. We need more information, both by seeing ourselves and by gathering more of the peices. An Embassy would be the best thing to set up to get some of this information, but sending some of the Explorers up north could be another. As long as we keep looking, we will get some more of the peices together

Eta Tamali

	07-02-2003 05:37									#43
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Lux will give us contact w/ Vox for Writing - fair to me

	07-02-2003 06:09									#44
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quote: Conjecture: Lux will pressure ND to the breaking point and ND will be forced to go to war against them. Lux will want that to happen while our Alliance is still active with them, trying to draw us into the conflict, or just to keep us from siding with ND.

I disagree with this conjecture. I beleive that Lux is just as wary of ND as ND is of them. Thing is, ND knows that they can't hold a candle to Lux. Lux doesn't know this. I don't beleive that Lux will be an aggresor in the near future.

quote: Conjecture: Lux's price to sell contact with Vox and/or GS will be very high. They want to maintain that monopoly for as long as they can. This can be verified by doing an embassy with them to see what is their tech rate actually is.

I concur that they have contact with at least Vox. However, I beleive that they could be persuaded to sell this contact, if they are so intent on being the middleman and reaping a profit.

I agree with jdjdjd, writing is a fair trade for contact, though I would push for some gold to go with it.

	07-02-2003 23:30									#45
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If we aquire contact with Vox, we could then aquire contact with GS from Vox ... so long as Vox has writing.

--Togas

	08-02-2003 07:36									#46
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I see that GoW has made contact with Vox.

The question needs to be asked, did they get to a terrain position that they could make the contact, or did Lux trade them the contact for something?

Eta Tamali

	08-02-2003 16:31									#47
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Great analysis you've made Eta, I agree with it. I can't imagine that Lux's handling is a coincidence. They want to get war with ND and us to support them in such a war.
My opinion is that we should let Lux know tactically that we do not want any war with ND and that we are not very likely to support them in such a war.

Aidun

	08-02-2003 16:34									#48
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Don't you need writing to trade contacts? If so, GoW or Lux can't have acquired contact with Vox in any other way than a 'visual' contact.

	08-02-2003 17:14									#49
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Interesting is that IF GoW has contact with Vox, they might trade writing to Vox. They can be sure that we won't have contact with them within 15 turns if we try to get "visual" contact as Crousto calls it.

Buying contact is expensive and quite useless in this stage as we will soon get contact with all for free.
It isn't a very logical choice to first buy and then be unsure to get much of the money back by trading writing

Aidun Cian

	08-02-2003 18:57									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Crousto Don't you need writing to trade contacts? If so, GoW or Lux can't have acquired contact with Vox in any other way than a 'visual' contact.

I forgot that....And I just Verified from the save that None of them have writing yet.

E_T

	08-02-2003 19:32									#51
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I forgot that....And I just Verified from the save that None of them have writing yet. E_T

"None of them" means ND, GoW and Lux. Am I right?

	08-02-2003 20:55									#52
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I forgot that....And I just Verified from the save that None of them have writing yet.

What is the delay in us techwhoring it then? GS will probably be right on our heels with discovering it (if not at exactly the same time). They could kill our marketing scheme

	08-02-2003 21:23									#53
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quote: Originally posted by oliverfa "None of them" means ND, GoW and Lux. Am I right?

Correct

Eta Tamali

	08-02-2003 22:11									#54
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We could trade Writing to Lux for Vox Contact + plus some gold maybe up tp 25 - which would lead to gettin GS contact.

We need to close the GoW deal - HBR for Writing + 60 G.

I agree with ruby - lets pull the triggers before someone else gets Writing.

	09-02-2003 04:00									#55
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The settlement deal as Togas have put forward, with our complete control of the Valley of Cows and their control of the eastern valley, has just been put forward by myself to Picahulu of Neu Demogyptica. I do not know how they will respond to this, but I trust they will make some ammendments, knowing them. However, I think that the deal, as is now, unless they whip out something reasonable, should be the one we agree upon.

Senor Thud, [occ]Firstly, did you notice that you look exactly like Julian Glover? And secondly[/ooc] Lux Invicta has shown itself already to be aggressive towards Neu Demogyptica by following their settlers around even when the Neu Demogypticans have asked them to stop it, and then they have needlessly (or at least so say our contacts in Neu Theban, the bustling center of Demogyptican culture) marched into Demogyptican territory, and menaced the very center of the caliphate, the capital itself. Finally, the placement of their new city also suggests threatening methods to force action. If this is not what they are doing, what do you suggest that they are doing?

The Chinese are not fools, nor is their leader, the Khan of Khans, despite the fact that he's a total jerk. Mark my words, they are planning something on a tremendous scale, and it will catch us all off guard. We had best be prepared, and thus we should try to seperate Neu Demogyptica from Lux Invicta, so to speak, using diplomatic methods, to mediate a war. To have them broken by warfare is the last thing we, ourselves, need. To have them overrun would give these barbarian pigs more power, and the only barrier between us would be broken.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador to Neu Demogyptica

	09-02-2003 21:16									#56
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So what you mean Senor Hernan, is that Senor Togas will let ND settle their disguesting pueblos in the Northeast to keep them away from the west coast?

You know what!? - My family just bought a goldmine up there. Our business will be ruined if they settle there. Arrgh!
Now we gotta invest in some silk-weaver workshops instead.



ooc:
The result could have been worse, I guess.....
e.g ND settling in the westcoast where they proposed, and a large scale war?

	10-02-2003 04:53									#57
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Assuming that war between Lux & ND is inevitable. And assuming that GoW will be involved in some mannor, what do you think our role should be? How seriously can GoW be involved at this point in the game, given that they have an equal strength military compared to ours and are building a Wonder in one of their cities? Who do we want to win, if anyone?

--Togas

	10-02-2003 05:33									#58
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My preference is ND. Lux appears to be too stupid to be allowed to live and GoW is too blustery to make truly good neighbours. My hope is that the whole thing occupies ND up north for so long, both the fighting and the annexation and settlement of the conquered lands that we can continue to REX down here so that we can meet ND (or GoW if they win the war) from a position of strength.

	10-02-2003 05:34									#59
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I trust ND more than Lux at the moment, Lux seems too opportunistic now and handling untactical. I want but first to get an agreement with ND about the Valle de los Torros.
I suggest History Guy de Calamari to use this in the discussion about the potential alliance.

Aidun Cian the Older

	10-02-2003 06:19									#60
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El Ruby Master, first let me say how sorry I am to hear of thy father's trampling and goring in Pamplona. Very sad affair. A good friend of mine back in the good old Iberian Delights days. Tragedy for Spain.

If there is a war, which I do believe there will be, I don't see either two civilizations surviving an invasion by the Chinese easily. Indeed, I do believe they will be rolled over and broken, smashing the posts so that the Chinese have access to us. Therefore, I suggest we either mediate the conflict, or build a very, very large army...

Of the two sides, I favor the Neu Demogypticans. I trust them for now. Once the war finishes, I would still trust them, for they do see the Chinese as a tremendous threat to their security. They are cautious, and prudent, for they do not seek war with Lux Invicta. Therefore, I trust them as the more honorable.

The Lux Invictans, by contrast, have proven themselves to have no honor. They broke their word to the Neu Demogypticans, and thus, I believe, once they would have the power to do so, they would break their word to us. They are too proud and stupid to be allowed to ever be very powerful, and I think that they will destroy themselves economically and militarily, if not totally, in open war with Arabia. I would have hoped that they would have not been so foolish, and seen China as the threat it is, for I believe that it is only through a coalition of forces that we would be able to contain and totally annhilate these warmongering savages.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger