01-02-2003 01:42									#211
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Well, I see this thread is a paragon of enlightened discussion.

	01-02-2003 01:45									#212
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Hey, I just couldn't resist it was too easy.

And now back to our regularly schedule programming....

	01-02-2003 01:45									#213
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Oerdin : we finally agreed on something
Anyone wants to react on how internal EU politics could motivate the moves of both France-Germany, and of the 8 yeasayers ?

	01-02-2003 02:00									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Ned, Saddam is of course a bloody dictator, and I wish nothing more than the Iraqi people could overthrow him and establish a more human, may be even democratic government. However, having a dictator does not justify an invasion. If it did, the United States would have to invade many of the other countries in ME, half of South America and 3/4 of Africa too. In fact, the US is even actively supporting many of these Micro-Hitlers, just like they formerly supported Saddam. On the question of WoMD, well, put facts on the table. Saying "we are convinced, that Saddam has WoMD" proves nothing. I'm sorry to say this, but hardly anyone in Europe considers GWB to be a reliable source of information. Statements without prove are hearsay, not more. Either put the smoking gun on the table, or tell Blix, where he can find it. Bush keeps to brag with his outstanding intelligence data. Why doesn't he use it to convince the world with facts? I dare to say, that he would get much, much more support, in France, Germany, and elsewhere, than with lying, wardrumming and threatening. At least I would say, ok, there's the prove, now go and remove that bastard. Instead of this, he makes with his "axis of evil", "who's not with us is against us" and similar bull more and more enemies everywhere in the world. The worlds opinion has never been as anti American, as it is now. In the case of France and Germany Bush and Rumsfeld clearly show their outstanding diplomatic skills. If I want to achieve something, it's of course the best choice to piss off my opponent. That letter of the 8 had also not the effect it should. It was made up like a commercial ad, who likes them? Blairs position was known before. Italy, oh well... Bush and Berlusconi are an awesome couple. Let's better be silent about Italy. For Spain I feel a bit sorry, I had a better opinion about Aznar. The other countries are, sorry, insignificant. Danmark helps you how, with 40-60 "hunters" (according to Winston)? What do they hunt? I'm sure they'll be the make or break in this war.

I don't know what precisely Powell is going to show. But what is rumored here is that we have evidence of an active coverup. The Iraqi's know where the inspectors are going and clean up the site before hand. This is one of the reason they do not want U2 flights. These could aid the inspectors in determining whether a site has been "changed."

As well, we seem to have photos of the mobile bio labs. Obviously, the inspectors will never be able to find these.

We also have evidence that the scientists who could tell us what is going on are under death threats.

The bottom line, Saddam is thwarting the inspections while appearing to cooperate. The inspection regime should no be permitted to continue in this mode.

	01-02-2003 02:05									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Ned, Saddam is of course a bloody dictator, and I wish nothing more than the Iraqi people could overthrow him and establish a more human, may be even democratic government. However, having a dictator does not justify an invasion. If it did, the United States would have to invade many of the other countries in ME, half of South America and 3/4 of Africa too. In fact, the US is even actively supporting many of these Micro-Hitlers, just like they formerly supported Saddam. On the question of WoMD, well, put facts on the table. Saying "we are convinced, that Saddam has WoMD" proves nothing. I'm sorry to say this, but hardly anyone in Europe considers GWB to be a reliable source of information. Statements without prove are hearsay, not more. Either put the smoking gun on the table, or tell Blix, where he can find it. Bush keeps to brag with his outstanding intelligence data. Why doesn't he use it to convince the world with facts? I dare to say, that he would get much, much more support, in France, Germany, and elsewhere, than with lying, wardrumming and threatening. At least I would say, ok, there's the prove, now go and remove that bastard. Instead of this, he makes with his "axis of evil", "who's not with us is against us" and similar bull more and more enemies everywhere in the world. The worlds opinion has never been as anti American, as it is now. In the case of France and Germany Bush and Rumsfeld clearly show their outstanding diplomatic skills. If I want to achieve something, it's of course the best choice to piss off my opponent. That letter of the 8 had also not the effect it should. It was made up like a commercial ad, who likes them? Blairs position was known before. Italy, oh well... Bush and Berlusconi are an awesome couple. Let's better be silent about Italy. For Spain I feel a bit sorry, I had a better opinion about Aznar. The other countries are, sorry, insignificant. Danmark helps you how, with 40-60 "hunters" (according to Winston)? What do they hunt? I'm sure they'll be the make or break in this war.

I don't know what precisely Powell is going to show. But what is rumored here is that we have evidence of an active coverup. The Iraqi's know where the inspectors are going and clean up the site before hand. This is one of the reason they do not want U2 flights. These could aid the inspectors in determining whether a site has been "changed."

As well, we seem to have photos of the mobile bio labs. Obviously, the inspectors will never be able to find these.

We also have evidence that the scientists who could tell us what is going on are under death threats.

The bottom line, Saddam is thwarting the inspections while appearing to cooperate. The inspection regime should no be permitted to continue in this mode.

	01-02-2003 02:11									#216
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My take on this the letter signed is this:

It seriously undermines the efforts for a unified EUI voice on the matter.

It was done in a rather hypocritical manner considering it didnt go through the known EU procedures

and it was a rather laughable but still it was a retort to the strong stance that Germany and France along with other EU countries have taken.

You got to laugh of course considering the leaders of the 8 countries and the manner in which it was done but it still was a knife in the back of the EU's quest to furthering its common foreign policy.

You also have the impressionable little yanks crying new europe! new europe! which is amuzing as well.


All in all a serious breach of the spirit at least of what some in the EU are trying to achieve.

	01-02-2003 02:15									#217
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There wasn't anything in the letter which went beyond what the foreign ministers of all EU member states agreed upon last Monday.

	01-02-2003 02:19									#218
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get the two texts and lets compare

	01-02-2003 02:25									#219
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Untill you do ponder this

quote: "The letter is a move, which poses a problem, because it was done without necessary consultation. But it is also an expression of opinion, which is free among the member states, Simitis said" "The way that was followed (by the letter) shows there was a lack of consultation, there was no information. This way, we are not helping Europe have a strong voice in the world,"

	01-02-2003 02:35									#220
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I'm not presenting any texts to you paiktis. You're the one who didn't do your homework before spouting your usual nonsense.

	01-02-2003 02:36									#221
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 You got to laugh of course considering the leaders of the 8 countries and the manner in which it was done but it still was a knife in the back of the EU's quest to furthering its common foreign policy.

So two countries are adimately opposed, eight countries are conditionally in favor, and a number are either neutral or tepidly opposed. Who's sticking the knife in the EU's back again?

Also why is it Paris & Berlin seem to feel they have a good given right to dictate policy to everyone else? They seldom, if ever, have anyone's best interests in mind but their own so why follow dogmatically what they say? The whole idea of a "common foreign policy" was just a blatant attempt by the Franco-German axis to make the other European states meakly fall in line with the Axis's policies any way. If the goal is democracy then isn't it better for each countries leadership to vote as their interests dictate instead of having their votes dictated to them by the not so dynamic duo?

	01-02-2003 02:39									#222
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EU (including new comers) 25 members?

in favor: 8


the point is to reach a common ground not going around offering showbiz letters to the US.

this is ridiculous.

Consultation, discussion common ground.

If this is not achieved then, after the discussions we issue a common EU statement stating this point.

Simple, intelligent and dignified.

	01-02-2003 02:43									#223
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BTW dont let your nationality or opinions get the best of you. Germany and France are the cornerstone of the EU's integration process. No letters change that.

	01-02-2003 02:45									#224
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Slovakia and Latvia are now backing the declaration by the European Eight.

	01-02-2003 02:46									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Slovakia and Latvia are now backing the declaration by the European Eight.

id already seen slovakia. Nice that the Latvians are aboard also.

	01-02-2003 02:47									#226
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 BTW dont let your nationality or opinions get the best of you. Germany and France are the cornerstone of the EU's integration process. No letters change that.

cant wait to see what Paki says when France supports us.

	01-02-2003 02:50									#227
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quote:
"The letter is a move, which poses a problem, because it was done without necessary consultation. But it is also an expression of opinion, which is free among the member states, Simitis said"

"The way that was followed (by the letter) shows there was a lack of consultation, there was no information. This way, we are not helping Europe have a strong voice in the world,"


exactly the same could be said about the French-german statements.

	01-02-2003 02:53									#228
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I think you'll have to wait for the day the UN votes, when France suprisingly will vote yes. No doubt we'll all have forgotten this discussion by then.

	01-02-2003 02:54									#229
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definitely.
but lessons can be taken from it by the way EU acts onm this issue.

	01-02-2003 02:55									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Also why is it Paris & Berlin seem to feel they have a good given right to dictate policy to everyone else? They seldom, if ever, have anyone's best interests in mind but their own so why follow dogmatically what they say?

They don't have this right. Do the United States have it? If not, why should anyone follow dogmatically what they say? If yes, why?

Also, neither France nor Germany dictate anything. They just say, no for us, you do what you want. What's wrong with it? The only power, who constantly tries all means of threat and pressure to force their policy to all others, is who? The "Land of the free, and the home of the brave".

	01-02-2003 02:58									#231
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Also it is ridiculous in this respect: most of the 8 are completely "uknown' and they got a first hand opportunity to feel important. this is not to be udnerestimated either

	01-02-2003 03:00									#232
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says the "chairman of the EU'R'us".

	01-02-2003 03:02									#233
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what I said is definitely a minor but funny point

	01-02-2003 03:04									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think you'll have to wait for the day the UN votes, when France suprisingly will vote yes. No doubt we'll all have forgotten this discussion by then.

I may not have forgotten, but i will nonetheless be ready with vive le france, some brie, and maybe even a Bordeaux if i can find a bottle thats a deal (well then make a rhone - er forget that make it a california wine with a french name)

	01-02-2003 03:04									#235
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quote: German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder was dismissive of the statement. "There exists a European position (held) by 15, not by eight," he told ZDF television, referring to a declaration by EU foreign ministers Monday which urged Iraq to cooperate.

but hey let's do a letter anyway, it would make us look good to the US

please

	01-02-2003 03:07									#236
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 but hey let's do a letter anyway, it would make us look good to the US please

tell me again how urging iraq to cooperate contradicts anything in the letter.

	01-02-2003 03:09									#237
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the letter was not only uneccaisery and a showbiz move but also hurt the EU's efforts for a comprehensive unified ONE opinion on thematter that IS the synthesis of the opposing views.


how difficult is this to grasp?

	01-02-2003 03:12									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Slovakia and Latvia are now backing the declaration by the European Eight.

Now Saddams fate is sealed.

	01-02-2003 03:13									#239
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Well he should have seen it coming

	01-02-2003 03:14									#240
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 the letter was not only uneccaisery and a showbiz move but also hurt the EU's efforts for a comprehensive unified ONE opinion on thematter that IS the synthesis of the opposing views. how difficult is this to grasp?

but how can it hurt the efforts for synthesis on the opposing views if it disagrees with NOTHING that is in the stated EU position

(Hint - heres how - the french voted for res 1441 - which demands immediate Iraqi disarmament - the currrent german-french stance, which wants inspections to continue for containment contradicts 1441 - but because France voted for it, they cant come right out and say it - so the letter attacks what everyone knows is the REAL French-German position, but which is not their explicit public position, and which has certainly never been approved by the EU- the EU is trying to create a synthesis between the pro-1441 view of the 8, and the anti-1441 of the French and Germans, and it is that attempt tht the 8 undecut with their letter. )