31-01-2003 03:49									#31
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Azazel... So your saying that a good thing about religion is that it was the first thing that could really scare the hell out of people? (non pun intended)

I agree with you that religion is good in that it set a good basis of "moral laws" from which most states draw their own laws from.

I also agree that if it was not for religion we would probably be decades removed from where we are today; technologically. Even though they caused barriers for scientific discovery they also promoted civil science and engineering in "the name of god".

Cali's opinion has nothing to with being racist. I know Cali's stance, I have been in many of those chats. Yet, I think Cali has a valid point... If that makes me racist then so be it... I think it makes me a realist...

	31-01-2003 03:58									#32
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OMG, are you one of those "black people are stupid, and strong, asian people are smart and weak, and white people are somewhere in the middle" crowd?

What I meant was that it provided a good way of keeping a stable community, while not having them all being literate, and intelligent. Yes, I know that the last thing was caused by religion itself, but that's true only in the european case.

Religion didn't always hamper science. I however still am opposed to it for being unscientific, since I am a materialist.

	31-01-2003 04:20									#33
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quote: What I meant was that it provided a good way of keeping a stable community, while not having them all being literate, and intelligent.

By instilling fear... It's ok to say it, you won't be struck by lightning or anything.

*Japher looks around nervously*

From your statement above I see that religion could also have been away to establish prejudism. "Your not of the clergy so you must be stupid. brahaha!"

Hey, the Catholics did this!

My stance on race and prejudism is best not discussed here. If you want to start another thread on the matter I would be happy to join... and I am sure Cali will too.

	31-01-2003 04:38									#34
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quote: By instilling fear...

yes, fear definetly played a very important part. but fantazyland has it's part as well.

quote: From your statement above I see that religion could also have been away to establish prejudism. "Your not of the clergy so you must be stupid. brahaha!"

in europe, for lots of time it was not only a prejudice, but a fact. for many years the only ones that got an eduction were the clergy, and usually the nobelity ( though, many were illiterate as well, IIRC)

quote: My stance on race and prejudism is best not discussed here. If you want to start another thread on the matter I would be happy to join... and I am sure Cali will too.

ok. let's leave THAT skeleton in the closet.

	31-01-2003 05:00									#35
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Religion can be positive in some senses... the old idea that if you have an emotion/idea you can't handle internally, you give it a name and "worship" it. That can be helpful, in a way.

As for organised religion... It can be beneficial, comforting and such, but to attain those benefits, you have to be willing to succumb to a bit of mythology and fantasy. Which is not necessarily a bad thing; it can help a lot of people get by. But some people think about spirituality and all that far too much to settle into a "belief rut" like that. And for those people, organised religion is a barrier to be broken.

I think the search for meaning in life has certainly benefitted humanity as a whole, but as for positive aspects of MODERN organised religion? Eh, I think their day is done.

I think I agree with Campbell on this point: We need a new mythology.

	31-01-2003 07:47									#36
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quote: I think the search for meaning in life has certainly benefitted humanity as a whole, but as for positive aspects of MODERN organised religion? Eh, I think their day is done.

Why do you believe they are 'done?'

There are many social problems here in the west, particularly a sense of isolation or detachment that organised religion helps overcome.

I know I felt alone all the time, now I find comfort in knowing that there is always someone with me.

That's one.

Another benefit of organised religion is the way in which the faithful structure their lives. Organised religion empathises strong family ties, as well as healthy relationships.

That's two.

Three, devotion. Organised religion provides the motive force for people to restructure their lives.

That's three.

Many more, but this will do for now.

	31-01-2003 07:55									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Another positive aspect: 1) Many Catholic, white priests were at the forefront of Civil Rights activism in the 1960's.

What about a certain black preacher in the 50's who was at the forefront of Civil Rights activism in the 1950's and 60's?

Religion was an important part of the civil rights movement in the south, simply because religion was important to blacks in the south. It was the one thing they had, that didn't have the stamp of the white man on it. At the time there were more churches in black areas of Atlanta than any other part of Atlanta.

ACK!

	31-01-2003 08:30									#38
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Religion is good for keeping your kids from screwing around. You just tell them, "remember, even if I can't see you God always sees you, and you don't want to go to hell." Just don't take it too far.

	31-01-2003 08:31									#39
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ok, know how extreme fundamentalists can try to use religion as a weapon against other people. Not to mention other past, historical crimes committed in the name of God such as the Crusades, witch hunts, and homophobia. But there were also positive contributions made by religions of all types: 1) Christian monasteries preserved our knowledge of the ancient world. Who knows how much we would know today had it not been for Middle Ages monks?

w/o christianity we prolly wouldnt have had a dark ages to begin with.

	31-01-2003 09:01									#40
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The Positive Aspects Of Negative Thinking
Bad Religion

let's gather 'round the carcass of the old deflated beast, we have
seen it through the accolades and rested in its lea, syntactic is our
elegance, incisive our disease, the swath endogenous of ourselves will
be our quandary, we've nestled in its hollow and we've succkled at its
breast, grandiloquent in attitude, impassioned yet inept, frivolous
gavel our design, ludicrous our threat, excursive expeditions leave us
holding less and less, so what does it mean? when we tell ourselves
it's only for a while we have been deceived and it's only for a moment
that the treasures of our day make life easier to complicate, the
treasure thrown away, i'm so tired of all the ****ed up minds of all
the terrorist religions and their bullshit lines, of all the hand-me-
downs from all industrial crimes and the weeping mothers and those who
aree led som blind, from the plastic protests and the hands of time
and the pursuit of mirth and all hating kind

	31-01-2003 09:18									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski What about a certain black preacher in the 50's who was at the forefront of Civil Rights activism in the 1950's and 60's? Religion was an important part of the civil rights movement in the south, simply because religion was important to blacks in the south. It was the one thing they had, that didn't have the stamp of the white man on it. At the time there were more churches in black areas of Atlanta than any other part of Atlanta. ACK!

Of course African-Americans have had their own organized churches, and still do. I'm familar with its historical development.
Of course African-Americans were the primary activists in the Civil Rights movement.

I pointed out white, Catholic priests as being another group of such activists, because too often, more secular people have forgotten that a number of white, Catholic priests marched alongside blacks.

	31-01-2003 09:25									#42
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I suppose being immersed in a world of mythical fiction, false hopes, and abhorrent misconception has a few advantages. I guess religion offers some lonely souls something to cling to. And it protects it's believers from facing the unknown nature of our universe and its existence.

	31-01-2003 09:31									#43
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Sava -- not all religious people are dumb. You can be actively religious, and still embrace scientific thought.

Stop associating extreme fundamentalists with the mainstream religious followers.

	31-01-2003 09:51									#44
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Any belief in a suspect certainty without proof to at the very least support it is wrong. IMO, there's little difference between faith and fanaticism. In fact, I actually have more respect for fanatics because they at least practice their religion how their respective literatures tell them, too. Too many people simply pick and choose different parts of religion and choose to follow them. And what's the point of that? I have no problem with someone who thinks that there is a God and that he's responsible for our creation. I have a problem with people that are self-righteous and try to impose their beliefs on a society or on others. And I have a huge problem with religion in government. Although there is not a state religion in the US, religion is very much entrenched in the fabric of our pseudo-democracy.

And I didn't say religious people are dumb. My mom and her parents are very religious. And although I don't agree with the beliefs of some, I don't think of myself as being superior in any way. Religion is a human phenomenom. It's part of the socialization of children in a given culture. And it's very difficult to realize that what some of the positive influences in your life (parents, priests, etc) taught you, could be wrong. If someone is taught their whole life that 2+2=5, I don't shun them for being wrong. It's not their fault, or the fault of their parents/religious leaders that they think this; it's been firmly engrained into many cultures. I just happen to think that if there is a God, he left things unknown to us for a reason and we shouldn't bother trying to guess the secrets to the questions that religions attempt to ask. The answers to these questions are out there for us to find. And sitting in a room trying to communicate with a God with your thoughts isn't going to spark a revelation or psychicly create anything.

Many of the morals that religions teach are good, but they are not dependent upon the religion. Many of the philosophies are good, but again, are not dependent upon the religion. It's important for people to understand that human religious scriptures were written by humans and not a deity(s). They are myths and parables written to teach a moral code. But that sort of thought leaves too much room for open interpretation which leads to fanaticism. The downside to religion is so much stronger than the upside that I must conclude that agnosticism is a better way to think.

And I think that deep down you must agree with me in some fashion if you need to create a thread to try and name the good things about religion.

	31-01-2003 10:05									#45
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quote: I just happen to think that if there is a God, he left things unknown to us for a reason and we shouldn't bother trying to guess the secrets to the questions that religions attempt to ask.

quote: Any belief in a suspect certainty without proof to at the very least support it is wrong.

Sava,
How else is religion supposed to answer these questions? Why is science allowed to probe, but religion is not?

quote: Many of the morals that religions teach are good, but they are not dependent upon the religion.

Which morals are good, and why do you believe they are good?

quote: It's important for people to understand that human religious scriptures were written by humans and not a deity(s).

Why? Even if the scriptures are inspired, people still have to interpret them.

quote: The downside to religion is so much stronger than the upside that I must conclude that agnosticism is a better way to think.

What are the downsides, Sava?

	31-01-2003 11:09									#46
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Community, maybe. But you can have the same thing if you volunteer for a humanitarian organisation.

Other than that, none.

The more important question is, do the positive aspects outweigh the negative aspects?

	31-01-2003 11:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 What are the downsides, Sava?

1. Religion leads to fanaticism and fundamentalism. Nastiness results.
2. You are believing in a falsehood. It cannot be true until it has been proven.
3. The "feel-good" factor is the same as getting high from drinking alcohol or doing drugs.
4. Religion tends to impose its morality over others.

	31-01-2003 11:59									#48
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Urban Ranger,

Assuming everything except for 2 is true:

1, 4

Don't apply to believers. Believers benefit by having others join. Same with fanaticism.

2,3 are more substantive.

3. The "feel-good" factor is the same as getting high from drinking alcohol or doing drugs.

Without the hangover? Sounds pretty good to me.

2. You are believing in a falsehood. It cannot be true until it has been proven.

Not so. There is a difference between something that is false and something that is unproven.

What standard of proof do you require? How many scientific 'proofs' have been rendered false when scientists acquire more data?

Finally, how do you know that my beliefs are false?

	31-01-2003 13:47									#49
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Positive aspects of religion:

1) Kept women in their place for years.
2)Condoned the persecution of people who had strange ideas or lifestyles.
3)Kept the power where it belonged i.e away from the people.
4)Kept dangerous ideas about science and freedom from people.
5)Allowed military tactics to develop at a rapid pace.

	31-01-2003 14:12									#50
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quote: Why do you believe they are 'done?'

I just think we've reached a point where modern religion has become counterproductive. It's no longer beneficial to worship the god of the Jews/Muslims/Christians, nor any other organised religion. We may have needed it in the past to keep us sane, but we've reached a point, as a culture, where we can explain alot of that stuff...

Modern religion is becoming a crutch... It's doing more harm than good. If people want to keep worshipping, that's fine. I just feel, personally, that the time of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God (of Abraham and Moses) is kaput.

quote: 3. The "feel-good" factor is the same as getting high from drinking alcohol or doing drugs.

quote: Without the hangover? Sounds pretty good to me.

So it's a dependency? It may be necessary for a lot of people, but I subscribe to the idea that any and every human is capable of being challenged with reality. The real world may not "feel good" at first, but the whole point of it all is to figure out how to MAKE it good. The comforting blanket of God lulls us to sleep, when we should be striving for... enlightenment? Inner peace? Peace with reality? Whatever you want to classify it as.

Ah, I'm rambling.

quote: Finally, how do you know that my beliefs are false?

I don't want to say that your beliefs are false. I just believe that your faith, and other faiths, are manifestations of the driving force of life. There is undoubtedly "something more" than what we see and feel, but to give that something a name, a title, and a purpose? That's clearly humanising something that is... so much more than humanity. The god of an ancient minor tribe in the Near East simply cannot be the "be-all-end-all" of... it all.

But hey, whatever floats your boat. I'm not here to judge, I'm just here to go off on tangents.

I ramble, therefore I am.

	31-01-2003 14:31									#51
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 How many scientific 'proofs' have been rendered false when scientists acquire more data?

Thats scientific theories, not proofs.
And do you really need someone to point out to you that a theory "rendered false" is only strengthened by the new data - as the theory is changed to more closely fit reality?

	31-01-2003 15:24									#52
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Urban Ranger, Assuming everything except for 2 is true: 1, 4 Don't apply to believers. Believers benefit by having others join. Same with fanaticism.

Don't even get me started how Christianity recruits more believers. It attacks people when they are vulnerable, in a emotionally weakened state, caused by the loss of a loved one or a recent breakup. People who are normally invulnerable often fall victim. It's like a disease, attacks only those who are weakened.

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 2,3 are more substantive. 3. The "feel-good" factor is the same as getting high from drinking alcohol or doing drugs. Without the hangover? Sounds pretty good to me.

If you need a drug or alcohol to help you escape from reality, most people think you have a problem. They don't realise it's the same with religion.

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 2. You are believing in a falsehood. It cannot be true until it has been proven. Not so. There is a difference between something that is false and something that is unproven.

I am not interested in a game of sematics. It remains a fact that A (idea, concept, thought, etc.) is not true until proven.

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 What standard of proof do you require?

Okay. Start from what we know, construct a proof or argument to show that the Christan god exists. It can either be logical or scientific. Negative arguments won't work.

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 How many scientific 'proofs' have been rendered false when scientists acquire more data?

Ahem.

Scientific theories aren't proven. They can acquire a variety of states such as "robust" or "sound" depending on the evidence garnered. They can be falsified, however.

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Finally, how do you know that my beliefs are false?

See above. They are false until proven. Otherwise, all beliefs are true, including Zeus, Odin, the Celestial Emperor, Ra, Umguf the Purple Unicorn, Ralph the Snake God, Brahma, the Ten Foot Hare, and the Giant Banana. Oh, and so is Santa Claus.

	31-01-2003 21:04									#53
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It's no longer fashionable to hate people because of their race, but now it's fashionable for atheists to hate people who are religious?

wonderful

	31-01-2003 21:08									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun It's no longer fashionable to hate people because of their race, but now it's fashionable for atheists to hate people who are religious? wonderful

Have you done picking on anti-homosexuals so now you are setting up strawmen against atheists?

	31-01-2003 21:12									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Have you done picking on anti-homosexuals so now you are setting up strawmen against atheists?

Do you think a person of any religion would find you to be respectful of them by you telling them that they believe in lies, when they feel that their faith is based on truth?

	31-01-2003 21:17									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Do you think a person of any religion would find you to be respectful of them by you telling them that they believe in lies, when they feel that their faith is based on truth?

Speaking of which, wouldn't a Christian be telling a person who believes in another religion that his religion is false? I am just taking this to the logical conclusion.

Besides, while that is my position, I wouldn't go and shout it in the face of a religion believer.

	31-01-2003 21:19									#57
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Yes of course -- it does go both ways.

Religious people need to respect non-denominational people, people of other religions, and atheists.

	31-01-2003 21:21									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Japher those are two different things. Instead of saying "the same level" you should of just left it as "the same." I do agree with Cal that diversity is a good thing, and teachs tolerance and acceptance. In away diversity helps to define the true meaning of words like love, honor, respect, and friends instead of having them confused with words like lust, admiration, and desire.

erm...I think we are talking about two different kinds of diversity. I am referring to racial diversity on a global scale, not the forced racial diversity practiced in modern western society.

This quote explains my position on racial diversity fairly clearly:

"Hybridization of superior and dissimilar stocks is the secret of the creation of new and more vigorous strains. And this is true of plants, animals, and the human species. Hybridization augments vigor and increases fertility. Race mixtures of the average or superior strata of various peoples greatly increase creative potential, as is shown in the present population of the United States of North America. When such matings take place between the lower or inferior strata, creativity is diminished, as is shown by the present-day peoples of southern India.

Race blending greatly contributes to the sudden appearance of new characteristics, and if such hybridization is the union of superior strains, then these new characteristics will also be superior traits.

As long as present-day races are so overloaded with inferior and degenerate strains, race intermingling on a large scale would be most detrimental, but most of the objections to such experiments rest on social and cultural prejudices rather than on biological considerations. Even among inferior stocks, hybrids often are an improvement on their ancestors. Hybridization makes for species improvement because of the role of the dominant genes. Racial intermixture increases the likelihood of a larger number of the desirable dominants being present in the hybrid."

quote: To me spirtuality is a following of a dogma, and it does not necessarily have to be religious.

What is spiritual about following a dogma or practicing a ritual? Those are transient, material things in no way related to spiritual growth.

	31-01-2003 21:25									#59
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I don't hate Christians, I just don't like religions as a whole. They could have a role in Third World countries, but surely enlightened people of the First World can stand on themselves without a supreme being looking over their shoulders?

	31-01-2003 21:27									#60
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What makes you think all people in Third World countries are not enlightened?

There are thousands of ignorant and/or superstitious people in Western countries.