21-04-2003 18:51									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Kull, I did some fixes as you requested here.
And attached and named it as the new version 2.3

Unfortunetly i couldnt load the saved game you attached me so i could not see the problem. I did some fixes in the infinite dead city bug. But i still want to do a complete freeing bug over it. After all i would have to play Craddle until more future ages to check what you pointed since i couldnt load you saed game. But i hope i fixed it.

Hex, can you uploaded this version in your website and remove the old one

	27-04-2003 17:50									#62
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Ok, i am newbie and just played my first, but the "Tribunal Empire" goverment seems to be too good.

	28-04-2003 08:09									#63
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Welcome Till...

Rule of thumb - Cradle governments are somewhat progressive in nature - the later governments usually are better than the earlier ones, and if they are contemporaries (like Republic/Oligarchy) there is usually a tradeoff - though overall, Republic is probably better for most situations than Oligarchy.

Tribunal Empire is the culmination of the Ancient governments, so compared with earlier governments, it is superior (though Republic does have a better science rate). The other contemporary (Dictatorship) is meant as a short term government for production and the best ancient grunt unit (Praetorians). In the long haul, Tribunal Empire should overtake Dictatorship in production due to a superior growth rate.

Don't worrry, most of the AIs are programmed to go for Tribunal Empire, so you will not be getting any advantages.

And compare Tribunal with Theology, and you will be making the switch to Theocracy rather quickly...

Pedrunn
Your file is at my site - thanks. Could you also update all of the other tileimp.txt files to reflect the changes you made, as well as the script.slc files? The current update only has your playing option for the normal 1.35 game, but not any of the 1.35 playing options. I'm not sure what you changed in the tileimp.txt files.

	28-04-2003 18:54									#64
	Inflate your Upload Space

Thanks for the answer and this very nice mod.
I just playing on Beginner but even there the A.I. does quite good. (But my start position was almost perfekt, so no chance for the AI =)) I only changed from Tribunal to Caliphate to raise the City limit.

	30-04-2003 05:08									#65
	Remove this text

I just got Civ 3 and thanks to my experience with cradle i have to say it sucks. Cradle is so much better, thx again for this mod.
But i sometimes dont like the diplomatic behavior of the AI. They give a **** about peace agreements or any other agreement.

	30-04-2003 07:52									#66
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The one feature that I really liked about civ3 over CTP2 was the diplomacy - though civ3's diplomacy also led to one of my biggest gripes about that game (it is much better to buy tech than research it yourself)

All I can say about CTP2's diplomacy is that you cannot trust the AI for anything - it will stab you in the back, and the weaker you are, the higher disdain it holds for you.

In that regard, it is an accurate reflection of history - as history is littered with the broken promises of nations. So watch your back...

And CTP2 has PW - 'nuff said!

	30-04-2003 20:04									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Interesting quote about diplomacy from the lead guy at Slitherine, the developers of the upcoming game 'Chariots of War' - a game I'm itching to get my hands on, btw. (it's set in the Ancient world...)

'In this period of our history, nobody trusted anyone else and peace treaties were not worth the papyrus they were iconographed on. For this reason there are no declarations of war. At any time you can attack and be attacked by any nation? are you nervous yet?!

So Cradle is merely staying true to history in regards to its diplomatic model

	30-04-2003 20:24									#68
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Im have some trouble installing craddle all i need is to find the official activision patch. I cant seem to be able to download it in CTP II apolyton site or in the activision site. Where can I get it?????/ Please help.........need to destroy civilizations and drink the blood of their civilians!!!!

	30-04-2003 20:48									#69
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Actually, it seems that my site is also linked to Apolyton and the link is not working. Give me a few minutes and I'll have a good link for the patch.

	30-04-2003 20:57									#70
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Flying Dutchmen, then?

Made by code generating "Ghost Pirates" on the fly?

	30-04-2003 21:05									#71
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Patch Link...

	02-05-2003 20:33									#72
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For testing the City Capture Options on Cradle I downloaded the full update of Cradle to 3.5 dated on April the 17th to update it easily. I noticed that it is a big download. The mayor part of it are the two tile files. First were is the sense in it to provide the gtset555.til file the game doesn't use it it is a dummy file. Second it is not a good idea that the *zip file overwrites my purple hill tile file, so a seperate download of the tile files would be better.

-Martin

	02-05-2003 21:04									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

OK, I managed it to start Cradle 3.5 now with DebugSlic=Yes, so the first thing I noticed is a small bug in the CRA_wonders.slc:

Line 330: It should be:

code:

	for(i=0; i < WONDERTIMP.#; i = i + 1){

code:

	for(i=0; i <= WONDERTIMP.#; i = i + 1){

Attachment: cra_wonders.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	02-05-2003 21:32									#74
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann First were is the sense in it to provide the gtset555.til file the game doesn't use it it is a dummy file. Second it is not a good idea that the *zip file overwrites my purple hill tile file, so a seperate download of the tile files would be better.

Actually, if you are downloading Cradle 1.35 for the first time, you will need the gtset555.til file, as this is needed for the Visible Wonders slic addition... at least this was provided to me by Ben as part of the Visible Wonders zipped file.

I may be wrong though and all you need is the gtset565.til file...

	02-05-2003 22:19									#75
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Actually, if you are downloading Cradle 1.35 for the first time, you will need the gtset555.til file, as this is needed for the Visible Wonders slic addition... at least this was provided to me by Ben as part of the Visible Wonders zipped file. I may be wrong though and all you need is the gtset565.til file...

The game only needs the gtset565.til file. You can rename the 555 one and you will notice the game runs without it, do it with the 565 one and the game won't run.

But there is still no need to pack it into the main download, espeacily if you think of updates for the Apolyton tile file. If I downöoad first the lastest version of the Apolyton tile file and then unzip Craddle over it without looking on the file I end with an outdated tile file, that's the problem. So you swap then to a mod that requires the latest tile file and you wonder why the game does not display all the new promissed tileimps and terrains. Maybe you notice that these tileimps are there but invisible.

So it is not a good idea to put them into the main download, better is a seperate download or the Apolyton tile file.

-Martin

	02-05-2003 23:10									#76
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It is this problem which prompted me to permit combinations of mods in ModManager - you can specify that Cradle needs the ApolTileFile - it won't work if the tile file is not installed and it is obvious to the user why not.

	24-05-2003 21:32									#77
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Is there a known bug involving the unit update code? Because sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. A while back I got the advance that upgrades Horsemen to Cataphracts, and all the upgrades occurred perfectly. But now after finally making it to the Dark Ages, the game gives a message that asks whether I'd like to proceed with a unit update - and when I answer "Yes", nothing happens. No more messages, and no upgrades. Earlier there was a similar problem involving the upgrade from Belfroi to Catapult. In that case I didn't have enough Gold to upgrade them all. A message appeared which indicated we'd begin to cycle through the list and I'd be given an opportunity to select units for upgrade, but that never happened, and none were advanced. I was able to solve this problem by delaying the Tech until I had enough cash to upgrade all Belfroi units. On the other hand, earlier in the game this incremental upgrade option worked fine (when going from spearmen to hoplites). Any thoughts on what's going on here would be appreciated!

Another oddity involves Naval battles. I've noticed that if I attack an enemy stack with a navy composed of heptiremes and triremes, my heptiremes do not receive "archer-type" support from the triremes. On the other hand, if the enemy attacks my force, the triremes sit in the rear of the battle and lob stuff at them. In effect, this means I can't initiate naval battles and have to maneuver my forces in such a way that the enemy attacks first. Aggravating to say the least. What's especially odd is that I've never seen this behavior from land forces. Any thoughts?

Oh, and one more. The music no longer plays during my game. Even if I start a new one! Unit and Event sounds aren't affected, and the music which accompanies the opening credits works fine. Only the in-game music is affected (a check of the options indicates that it should be playing, but it just doesn't)

Last edited by Kull on 24-05-2003 at 21:37

	24-05-2003 21:53									#78
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Well for the unit placement in battles I already saw this on land, my archers that should be in the second row instead in the first row. Finnally I solved the problem by regrouping the stack, I removed all the second row units, and added them again so that these units weren't anymore on the front positions in the stack.

-Martin

	25-05-2003 04:35									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have always had trouble with the unit updater in cradle. Does not work all the time as Kull described.

With the naval units I think also there is an error in one of the early naval units in units.txt that means it does not bombard and I wondered if it caused the lack of ranged attack in combat.

I'll have to try Martins suggestion and see if it makes a difference.

	25-05-2003 04:38									#80
	Got spare money?

Back to unit updater, how about people keep a record of updater failures in cradle to see if we can establish a pattern.

Or can U look at it Martin please as I find it very annoying. The AI updates everything automatically and we cant, even if we have saved the gold.

	25-05-2003 19:39									#81
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AAK! You guys are still playing with the old version of the updater.

Here's a new version. If you've installed CTP2 in the normal way, unzip to the drive you've got it on (probably C: ). Otherwise, unzip to your desktop and then cut and paste.

I don't have Cradle 3.5 installed, so I didn't have any saved games that I could test it on. But it works fine in my mod and I've just changed some data so that it should work with Cradle.

Here's the main differences between this and the old one:

1) You can update when you get the advance. At this point you have the option of updating land units that are in cities or forts, sea units that are in cities, or air units that are in cities or airbases. There is a cost involved and if you don't have enough gold you won't be able to update your units.

2) An easier way is to use the 'Sentinel' button. To update units that are still obsolete because they weren't in the proper location or you couldn't afford it, you can move them to a city (or fort, or airbase) and press the 'Sentinel' button. You'll then get a message asking if you want to update the unit. This procedure can be automated.

(Also, the AI will not necessarily update all it's units.)

quote: Another oddity involves Naval battles. I've noticed that if I attack an enemy stack with a navy composed of heptiremes and triremes, my heptiremes do not receive "archer-type" support from the triremes. On the other hand, if the enemy attacks my force, the triremes sit in the rear of the battle and lob stuff at them. In effect, this means I can't initiate naval battles and have to maneuver my forces in such a way that the enemy attacks first. Aggravating to say the least. What's especially odd is that I've never seen this behavior from land forces. Any thoughts?

I've noticed this sort of thing too. I think the game must handle naval battles differently from land battles.

quote: Oh, and one more. The music no longer plays during my game. Even if I start a new one! Unit and Event sounds aren't affected, and the music which accompanies the opening credits works fine. Only the in-game music is affected (a check of the options indicates that it should be playing, but it just doesn't)

Exactly the same with me. Not that I miss it, cause I like listening to the radio but does anyone know why this is happening?

	26-05-2003 04:30									#82
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hi Peter,

I have been using the latest updater and still had trouble.

However, I am working on a mod which involves 12 new units for the ancient period of cradle.

To include the new units in the updater, would I simply have to add aditional entries in the following arrays?

1) EN_ADV[0]=AdvanceDB(ADVANCE_BRONZE_WORKING);
OLD_UNIT_TYPE[0]=UnitDB(UNIT_SPEARMAN);
NEW_UNIT_TYPE[0]=UnitDB(UNIT_HOPLITE);
PER_UNIT_UPDATE_COST[0]=280;


2) if (theAdvance== AdvanceDB(ADVANCE_BRONZE_WORKING)){
if (HasAdvance(thePlayer, ID_ADVANCE_BRONZE_WORKING)){
advanceChk=1;
}

New wadvances/units include migration (Hun Raider), seamanship (Galley), animal husbandry (heavy cavalry), and a few more and several new units with existing techs are reached such as scout at water lifts and swordsman at copper smelting.

However, the new updater is great for the human but not for the AI. Is it possible to combine the two updaters so that the AI updates automatically in the old way but the human does it the new way? This is simply for play balance purposes as any experienced person can wear down the AI in succession with relative ease.

	26-05-2003 20:14									#83
	Support Apolyton

Hi Stankarp,

quote: To include the new units in the updater, would I simply have to add aditional entries in the following arrays? 1) EN_ADV[0]=AdvanceDB(ADVANCE_BRONZE_WORKING); OLD_UNIT_TYPE[0]=UnitDB(UNIT_SPEARMAN); NEW_UNIT_TYPE[0]=UnitDB(UNIT_HOPLITE); PER_UNIT_UPDATE_COST[0]=280; 2) if (theAdvance== AdvanceDB(ADVANCE_BRONZE_WORKING)){ if (HasAdvance(thePlayer, ID_ADVANCE_BRONZE_WORKING)){ advanceChk=1; }

Yes, that's all you need to do.

quote: However, the new updater is great for the human but not for the AI. Is it possible to combine the two updaters so that the AI updates automatically in the old way but the human does it the new way? This is simply for play balance purposes as any experienced person can wear down the AI in succession with relative ease.

The only restriction on the AI's updating is that now it won't update units that are on your territory. If you want to allow this, the easiest thing to do is find the following segment of code in the AI_UnitUpdater handler (line 345 if your editor has line numbers):

code:

     locChk=0;
     locOwner=CellOwner(tmpUnit.location);
     if (locOwner == -1){
          locChk=1;
     }
     elseif (!IsHumanPlayer(locOwner)) {// IsHumanPlayer(-1) causes IPF
          locChk=1;
     }
     if (locChk){//on unowned or non-human ground
          OBS_UNIT_ARRAY[NUM_OBS_UNITS] = tmpUnit;
          NUM_OBS_UNITS =NUM_OBS_UNITS +1;
     }

	26-05-2003 21:26									#84
	Suffering from ads?

I'm stumped on the music issue, because in the Succession game that I'm playing with stankarp, I'm able to get the music to play with no problem.

As for the status of Cradle, stankarp and I are currently addressing some of the issues that are cropping up in Cradle 1.35, and there will be a v1.36.

One of the issues we are looking at the city cap/happiness issue with the AI, which seems to a problem on games on gigantic (+) maps. As a sidenote, my personal games were on huge maps, so this problem was not an issue for me.

He is doing all of the actual work - I'm just adding my 2 cents to the process...

	27-05-2003 03:44									#85
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I have never had a problem with music, I even start the game, put a different cd in for a change and have no problem.

I hope to be ready for play testing all new features for 1.36 in about 4-6 weeks. I am trying to make the time line play out more historically and add a few features to give it a new feel and make it fun to play, mainly to provide rewards for positive action and forward planning.

I am concentrating on the ancient period as a start. There are about 12 new techs, 11 new units, tweaked a few things, 3 new concepts (pillage bonus, advance from city capture, supply train). Specialist infantry units(peltast, hypaspist and Roman Auxilliary) have a flanking ability to reflect there special training. Fast ranged units have a small bombard ability which the AI does use. Later ranged units can also bombard and counter bombard.

With kind help from David, IW, Pedrunn and Martin, I hope it will give people a new experience:-)

	28-05-2003 03:24									#86
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Hi Peter,

What would be the best approach re power points and my new units. I wanted some of them to upgrade if possible.

Choose the same power point no as a comparable unit ? I want to upgrade warriors and advanced warriors at copper smelting. Create new details above for them and advance copper smelting?

	29-05-2003 01:45									#87
	Put an end to popups!

Here's the current system (with the units I'm coding up):

quote: PowerPoints Coding System 0 - UNIT_CATEGORY_GENERIC UNIT_CITY UNIT_OCEAN_CITY 1 - UNIT_CATEGORY_SETTLER Land Settler UNIT_SETTLER UNIT_URBAN_PLANNER 2 - UNIT_CATEGORY_SETTLER Sea Settler UNIT_SEA_ENGINEER 3 - UNIT_CATEGORY_SPECIAL UNIT_DIPLOMAT UNIT_SLAVER UNIT_ABOLITIONIST UNIT_CLERIC UNIT_SPY UNIT_LAWYER UNIT_CORPORATE_BRANCH UNIT_TELEVANGELIST UNIT_EMPATHIC_DIPLOMAT UNIT_NUKE UNIT_CYBER_NINJA UNIT_INFECTOR UNIT_ECO_TERRORIST UNIT_ECO_RANGER 10 - UNIT_CATEGORY_NAVAL can't bombard [these and only these should be transports] UNIT_AIRCRAFT_CARRIER UNIT_CARRACK UNIT_CATAMARAN UNIT_CLIPPER UNIT_LONGSHIP UNIT_RAIDER UNIT_TROOP_SHIP 11 - UNIT_CATEGORY_NAVAL Naval can bombard Water UNIT_FRIGATE (PT boats) 12 - UNIT_CATEGORY_NAVAL Naval can bombard Land, Mountain, and Water UNIT_FIRE_TRIREME UNIT_BATTLESHIP UNIT_DESTROYER UNIT_GALLEON UNIT_IRONCLAD UNIT_PLASMA_DESTROYER UNIT_SHIP_OF_THE_LINE 20 - UNIT_CATEGORY_UNDERSEA UNIT_CRAWLER UNIT_DREADNAUGHT UNIT_KRAKEN UNIT_SCOUT_SUB 21 - UNIT_CATEGORY_UNDERSEA can bombard Water UNIT_SUBMARINE UNIT_MOREY_STRIKER UNIT_NUCLEAR_SUBMARINE 30 - UNIT_CATEGORY_AERIAL can't bombard [air transports] UNIT_CARGO_HELICOPTER UNIT_SPACE_PLANE 31 - UNIT_CATEGORY_AERIAL can bombard Land, Mountain, and Water UNIT_ATTACK_HELICOPTER UNIT_BIPLANE UNIT_BOMBER UNIT_FIGHTER UNIT_INTERCEPTOR UNIT_JET_BOMBER UNIT_STEALTH_BOMBER UNIT_STEALTH_FIGHTER 38 - UNIT_CATEGORY_AERIAL Aerial Special UNIT_SPY_PLANE 39 - UNIT_CATEGORY_AERIAL is Missile (cruise and nukes) UNIT_CRUISE_MISSILE UNIT_NUKE 50 - UNIT_CATEGORY_RANGED UNIT_ARCHER UNIT_ARQUEBUSIER UNIT_COMPOSITE_ARCHER + all Great Leaders 51 - UNIT_CATEGORY_RANGED can bombard Land, and Mountain UNIT_BOMBARD UNIT_CANNON UNIT_CATAPULT UNIT_EARLY_CATAPULT UNIT_HOWITZER UNIT_WAR_WALKER (+ air) 52 - UNIT_CATEGORY_RANGED can bombard Land, Mountain, and Water UNIT_LIGHT_ARTILLERY UNIT_ARTILLERY UNIT_MOBILE_SAM (+ air) 60 - UNIT_CATEGORY_FLANKER 70 - UNIT_CATEGORY_ATTACK 80 - UNIT_CATEGORY_DEFENSE (special) [immobile] UNIT_LEVIATHON UNIT_PILLBOX 81 - UNIT_CATEGORY_DEFENSE (proper) [bonus against flankers] UNIT_HEAVY_MACHINE_GUNNER UNIT_HOPLITE UNIT_MACHINE_GUNNER UNIT_MUSKETEER UNIT_PIKEMEN 82 - UNIT_CATEGORY_DEFENSE is Militia (all have Defense bonus against flankers) UNIT_HOPLITE_MILITIA UNIT_PIKEMEN_MILITIA UNIT_MUSKETEER_MILITIA UNIT_MACHINE_GUNNER_MILITIA UNIT_HEAVY_MACHINE_GUNNER_MILITIA

The thing is that, although you can use UnitDB(tmpUnit.type).field where the field value is an integer, you can't get strings this way. So I've used the powerpoints field to first of all duplicate the UNIT_CATEGORY entrys and then sometimes, within these categories, I've subcategorized to get at other strings.

	29-05-2003 03:18									#88
	Increase Your PM Length

Thanks. :-)

	30-05-2003 15:35									#89
	Remove this text

Hi Peter, for future reference, does the following entries have to be in any order (to save having to renumber all advances in the list each time i ad one)?

) EN_ADV[0]=AdvanceDB(ADVANCE_BRONZE_WORKING);
OLD_UNIT_TYPE[0]=UnitDB(UNIT_SPEARMAN);
NEW_UNIT_TYPE[0]=UnitDB(UNIT_HOPLITE);
PER_UNIT_UPDATE_CO

With these entries, any order as well?

if (theAdvance== AdvanceDB(ADVANCE_BRONZE_WORKING)){
if (HasAdvance(thePlayer, ID_ADVANCE_BRONZE_WORKING)){
advanceChk=1;
}

Thanks.

	30-05-2003 19:07									#90
	Tired of ads?

I managed to add new advances and other changes for the updater.

Very happy to report that my first two upgrades, copper smelting/advanced warrior to heavy swordsman and bronze working/spearman to hoplite were perfectly successful.

My honest congratulations Peter, looks like a job really well done. The old updater was such hard work, this one matches one of the few features of Civ3 that was better than Ctp. Now its on a par.

I tried to alter line 345 for the ai updates but it led to over 50 slic errors. I was very careful re the placing of the space, and double checked but it did not work on both times I tried it. However, on reflection, I wont bother with it thanks. Most Ai units will upgrade anyway because they are in cities and the few that are left wont hinder the ai that much, it gets such big bonuses that it actually will probably benefit from the need for the human player to capture a city or march all the units back to another city.

Again, great work Peter.:-))))))))))))))