05-02-2003 04:21									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm home and about to load my copy of the turn so I can look at the situation first-hand.

	05-02-2003 04:23									#32
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Just think of what 4 turns of disease could have done without a granary...

Is there any point in building a worker in 3 or 4 turns in EotS? What size is it actually, size 4? If we get on a 4 turn schedule, can we still build 2 turn workers immediately following this one? Otherwise it seems obvious to build a warrior in EotS.

DeepO

	05-02-2003 04:25									#33
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Nathan, EotS needs some crisis management. What I would propose is, to set it on 3 food surplus now (that'll be only 2, because we get struck again next turn) and 4 food surplus next turn. That nets us at least a couple of shields, although I don't know yet what to build. Probably not a worker, as we need to grow again. Hell knows... perhaps another warrior as escort and barbarian hunter? It's also stupid, because it'll be regular, but what shall we do?

I go to bed now, I need the sleep. I have an awful stress at work and can't afford to be tired. Please, play the turn.

	05-02-2003 04:34									#34
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We're down to size 3, and will drop to size 2 next turn but bounce back up to size 3 the turn after if we play things right. We should be able to time thngs to complete a worker the turn we grow back to size 4 (two turns later), but then it would take another four turns for our next worker after that just because we won't have enough shields. Then three turns for the worker after that, and then we should be back on a 2-turn pace. (Assuming we still want to go full speed after the Great Library.)

	05-02-2003 04:42									#35
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Nathan, does using the chop from the second forest (the one on grass) help in any way? Can it be used to set a 4-turn worker to a 2-turn, for instance? Supposing we can get to the forest in time, of course.

DeepO

	05-02-2003 04:43									#36
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Sir Ralph, your plan sounds like what I was thinking: work two furs and a FP this turn, and then whatever combination of tiles proves necessary next turn to get the food needed to grow back to size 3 the turn after. I'll go ahead and set production on a worker for the moment, but we may want to go for a settler instead. On one hand, after disease is the one time we can build settlers without sacrificing growth while waiting for the necessary shields. On the other, it would set back the Great Library project still farther. In any case, that's not a decision that has to be made today.

	05-02-2003 04:45									#37
	Increase Your PM Length

Basically, this sets us back 4 turns when simply going for workers, or do I see that wrong? It isn't a disaster... I would still aim for the GL, but we might want to take into account that somewhere in full race we get hit by disease again.

DeepO

	05-02-2003 04:49									#38
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The forest is outside EotS's radius. In any case, we'll be able to build our next worker as soon as EotS grows back enough to build one without falling below size 3 (which would hurt its growth rate and hence delay future workers and settlers).

	05-02-2003 04:51									#39
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By my calculations, we'll lose two turns on the first worker, two more on the next one, and a fifth on the one after that.

	05-02-2003 04:56									#40
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Nathan, not that one, the last one with the fur, which would ideally be chopped before both Hurricane and EotS can use the most of the present tiles.

If we're going to chop it anyway, maybe it can be used. But of course, if food is really the constraining factor, no need to think on that.

5 turns delay... sigh. I would definately try to get some slaves from Vox early to compensate...

DeepO

	05-02-2003 05:04									#41
	Increase Your PM Length

The real limiting factor on sustained worker production is that EotS needs to be at size "four and a half" (i.e. size four with half the food needed to grow to size 5) after building each worker. A chop, even if one were practical, wouldn't help with that.

	05-02-2003 05:17									#42
	Put an end to popups!

- Settler and Gronk headed for Gold Hill.
- Crush moved to EotS. His place in Hurricane will be taken by a new, veteran warrior next turn.
- Zonk moved back 8 to the worker, and Slash 8 so he can maybe help out if barbs show up while the settler and Gronk are headed for Gold Hill (seeing as Arrian and Theseus are leaving their orders in the hands of mere lieutenants).

	05-02-2003 05:33									#43
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Screenshots and turn sent.

	05-02-2003 08:13									#44
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I'm a little confused...

The Warrior and Spearmen to be built in Hurricane were due to the lack of worked tiles for both Hurricane and EotS, correct?

Does the pop decline in EotS change this? Should we forego the units and get right onto the GL?

Re: Warrior movements. Nathan, I totally trust / agree with all of the "military" decisions made thus far. It's when we get to a Sword / Spear / Worker mixed-unit Army that I'll insist on precise control!!

BTW, shouldn't we be thinking about connecting the iron next to Hurricane?

	05-02-2003 09:24									#45
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The main reason for the warrior and spearman in Hurricane was that some people, especially Sir Ralph, felt that our defenses would be spread too thin with only the units we had until Bolderberg's barracks comes online. When I noticed that we could use a chop to get a warrior and a spearman with only a six-turn delay in starting the Great Library, and in the process could make another tile available to work to make up some of the lost time, it looked like a good compromise solution. Two spearmen instead of a warrior and a spearman might have been a tempting alternative, but with our having to work an unimproved grassland for a turn, the first spearman would have taken six turns instead of five. That made a warrior and a spearman more clearly the way to go.

As for changing, the warrior will be finished next turn, so all we could possibly save at this point is the three turns for the spearman, which would translate to completing the Great Library less than a full turn earlier. Further, if we switched now, we'd have to throw away the time we already have invested in the chop. So I think it makes sense to stick to the plan and have Hurricane build a spearman too.

In regard to connecting the iron, I'd just as soon take our time about it as long as we have enough workers in the general area to get the job done in time if Vox tries something. As long as the iron remains unconnected, there is no risk that it will disappear, and barring an emergency, it will be a while before we build any swordsmen.

Nathan

	05-02-2003 16:17									#46
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Well, if General Theseus considers our defense to be sufficient and proposes immediately to switch to the GL, I rest my cause. The reason why I brought it up was the temporary absence of our chief tacticians and the (in my opinion) resulting overweight of economical development, opposed to the military buildup. If the person responsible for our defense counts it sufficient, I withdraw my objections.

Still I think, that our defense is very thin. True, on our difficulty level we have a huge combat advantage with barbarians, but soon barbarian horsemen may show up, and I just don't want to risk a city's production, or a pop point, or half of our gold reserves, just because we lacked forces to hunt barbarians or to defend our cities or settlers.

	05-02-2003 17:11									#47
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Even if we don't use Hurricane's wood for a spear, we need to chop that forest if we want decent production in the city. Which means that the delay for the GL will be 3 turns (as the alternative would be wasting the wood, but still chopping) and not 1, but also that the spear we get is more or less half free, as otherwise the shields would be wasted.

So there is little to gain from switching to the GL immediate. But, we need to make sure we can get 6 workers and/or slaves in 19 turns (18?), to be right in time for Hurricane to grow to size 6 to add all workers. And, at that time, the tiles they work should be improved. I fear a little that we might get hit with disease again, which would further jeopardise our project. Wouldn't it be best if we foresee some workers to be built from e.g. the goldcity, as backup? Already it's going to take 17 turns to get our 6 workers, with another disease we'll be looking at 22 turns.... (without help from Vox, of course)

DeepO