08-02-2003 11:19									#31
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See, Paiktis? Someone else thinks its a boy...

OT, I might take the anti-war crowd more seriously if they put as much thought and effort into understanding the issues as they did in making catchy slogans.

	08-02-2003 11:23									#32
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Because he misread my post.
Not out of the blue like you did... Freudian slip!

	08-02-2003 13:11									#33
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yep, because of misread post. I wouldn't take that for a man? What's wrong with you Drake

	08-02-2003 13:20									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten OT, I might take the anti-war crowd more seriously if they put as much thought and effort into understanding the issues as they did in making catchy slogans.

And what makes you think they don't?

	08-02-2003 13:51									#35
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quote: I might take the anti-war crowd more seriously if they put as much thought and effort into understanding the issues as they did in making catchy slogans.

I might take the pro-war crowd seriously if they put *any* thought in the post-Saddam situation.

	08-02-2003 22:43									#36
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I might take the pro-war crowd seriously if they thought, period.

	08-02-2003 23:06									#37
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That was never the motivation for the Pro-War crowd, surely. Thought, I mean. They just want to get an adrenalin kick. Yee-haw! Testosterone!

	08-02-2003 23:24									#38
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I liked the "If you can't pronounce it, don't bomb it"

quote: George Carlin said that US policy has always been to bomb anybody we think has bigger ****s than we do.

I remember that monologue about missiles and penises. That wasn't what he said.


erm, Buck, what?

	09-02-2003 00:49									#39
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quote: And what makes you think they don't?

What's the anti-war crowd's solution to the problem posed by Iraq? How do they propose we stop the spread of WMD's? How do they plan on democratizing the Middle East and defeating Islamic fundamentalism?

Real answers to these question would make me respect the anti-war crowd a hell of a lot more, but all we get from them is stupid slogans...

quote: I might take the pro-war crowd seriously if they put *any* thought in the post-Saddam situation.

What makes you think they haven't? It's my major concern with the war as well, but there have been indications that the adminstration has planned for a post-war Iraq.

	09-02-2003 01:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten What's the anti-war crowd's solution to the problem posed by Iraq?

Containment.

quote: How do they propose we stop the spread of WMD's?

How does invading Iraq accomplish that?

quote: How do they plan on democratizing the Middle East

That's not very high on my list of priorities when it comes to sends troops into action.

quote: and defeating Islamic fundamentalism?

How does invading a secular country accomplish that?

	09-02-2003 01:51									#41
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devil's advocate or anti-war?

	09-02-2003 01:52									#42
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quote: What makes you think they haven't?

For instance, the whole lack of dialogue on this issue in the public discourse. Hawks cleary don't have an answer, and for the few that do, either it's not grounded in reality or they don't give a **** about the Iraqi people.

quote: It's my major concern with the war as well, but there have been indications that the adminstration has planned for a post-war Iraq.

I'm sured Shrub et al. have planned something. But that doesn't mean that it's well thought-out or the plan is morally acceptable.

	09-02-2003 01:55									#43
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It would be interesting to see the anti war groups come up with a comprehensive and realistic bunch of policies that would solve the issue of WoMD without resorting to war.

Of course I doubt they will because it is very easy to find fault with other people and very difficult to come up with real solutions to real problems.

	09-02-2003 01:55									#44
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem paiktis22, the truth is, we're ALL like this. That jingoistic flag-waving stuff is just a troll for the Europeans. Nobody here takes it seriously. Take Lancer, for instance; he's actually a speechwriter for Noam Chomsky. Bet you didn't know that. And Slowwhand is co-chair of the state Green Party in Texas. Last I heard, lord of the mark was collaborating with Howard Zinn on a new edition of People's History of the United States. Fact is, I'm probably the most conservative person around here. Honest.

This was a great ****ing post.

	09-02-2003 01:57									#45
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quote: Containment.

Containment isn't a solution; it just pushes resolution of the issue off until a later date.

quote: How does invading Iraq accomplish that?

One less country actively seeking nuclear weapons...

quote: That's not very high on my list of priorities when it comes to sends troops into action.

If you want to win the war on terror, it should be your number one priority.

quote: How does invading a secular country accomplish that?

Iraq is the Arab nation most likely to be receptive to democratic government, due to its secular nature and educated populace. It's the best place to introduce democracy to the Middle East to serve as an alternative to Islamic fundamentalism.

	09-02-2003 02:01									#46
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quote: For instance, the whole lack of dialogue on this issue in the public discourse.

Most of the important decision-making on complex issues like this takes place outside of the public discourse. There has been a discussion of this issue going on in foreign policy circles, which I'm sure has continued in the administration. Just because we don't know much about the plans doesn't mean they don't exist or are horrible. As a curious individual, I'd certainly like to see the plans laid out in detail, but I'm also smart enough to know why that hasn't happened yet.

	09-02-2003 02:06									#47
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Because the plans aren't morally accpetable. I find it very unlikely that we're suddenly going to abandon the Turkish alliance or the strongly anti-Iranian policy.

	09-02-2003 02:11									#48
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quote: Because the plans aren't morally accpetable. I find it very unlikely that we're suddenly going to abandon the Turkish alliance or the strongly anti-Iranian policy.

You need to explain this a little more. Taking Turkish interests into account and opposing Iran doesn't automatically make a plan immoral...

	09-02-2003 02:16									#49
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quote: Iraq is the Arab nation most likely to be receptive to democratic government, due to its secular nature and educated populace. It's the best place to introduce democracy to the Middle East to serve as an alternative to Islamic fundamentalism.

There's no possible way that the US will establish a democratic regime in Iraq, that would mean handing Iraq over to the Shi'ite majority which would mean a complete (and very messy overhaul) of the Iraqi state and mechanism and the disestablishment of the vast majority of the Iraqi elite. It would also enrage the Saudis.

	09-02-2003 02:18									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Containment isn't a solution;

Why not? It's worked before.

quote: quote: That's not very high on my list of priorities when it comes to sends troops into action. If you want to win the war on terror, it should be your number one priority.

Serving braod strategic aims should be the only concern of a country sending troops abroad, not silly idealistic notions like spreading liberty to the ME.

	09-02-2003 02:20									#51
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In a nutshell:

1. Kurds will lose their autonomy, either by being annexed by Turkey or reannexed by Iraq. It'll also be very bloody when this happens.
2. It's unlikely that we'll let overwhelmingly Shia Iraq vote for whomever they like given the possibility of an Iran-friendly government taking power at the expense of currently entrenched Sunni powers.

	09-02-2003 02:31									#52
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quote: There's no possible way that the US will establish a democratic regime in Iraq

Why are you so sure about that? It certainly won't be easy, but it's not impossible either.

quote: It would also enrage the Saudis.

Who cares? The Saudis aren't friends of the US and the sooner we're rid of them, the better.

quote: Why not? It's worked before.

How? Saddam still has WMD and America has enraged a generation of Arab youth by placing troops in Saudi Arabia and "murdering" Iraqi citizens with sanctions.

quote: Serving braod strategic aims should be the only concern of a country sending troops abroad, not silly idealistic notions like spreading liberty to the ME.

There are broad strategic aims in regards to Iraq; the "silly" idealistic notions are just a bonus.

BTW, it's a little disturbing to see an American calling the active encouragement of democracy "silly".

quote: 1. Kurds will lose their autonomy, either by being annexed by Turkey or reannexed by Iraq. It'll also be very bloody when this happens.

Kurdish leaders have already said that they support being part of a democratic Iraq. They would prefer to be independent, but they understand that the realities of the situation prevent that.

quote: 2. It's unlikely that we'll let overwhelmingly Shia Iraq vote for whomever they like given the possibility of an Iran-friendly government taking power at the expense of currently entrenched Sunni powers.

Why would the US be totally opposed to a democratic Iraq that is friendly to Iran? The point of democratizing Iraq is to encourage democracy in other states in the region and Iran in particular. A Shiite-led democracy in Iraq would provide a great example for Iranian democracy proponents, possibly hastening the removal of the Ayatollahs. Sounds like a great thing from a US perspective, as long as the Iraqi government is friendly to us as well as Iran.

	09-02-2003 02:39									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten There are broad strategic aims in regards to Iraq; the "silly" idealistic notions are just a bonus.

Name them

	09-02-2003 02:48									#54
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Your link doesn't work, DD.

Preventing Saddam from acquiring nukes is a broad strategic aim, as it helps maintain the balance of power in the Middle East.

	09-02-2003 02:52									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Your link doesn't work, DD.

Try this one then

	09-02-2003 02:54									#56
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[antiwar view on those who support war]

*chants* WAR WAR WAR WAR

*beats drums and sacrafices a virgin, all the while shaking a bone rattle and dancing around a large fire*

[\antiwar view on those who support war]

	09-02-2003 02:56									#57
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quote: Kurdish leaders have already said that they support being part of a democratic Iraq. They would prefer to be independent, but they understand that the realities of the situation prevent that.

You really think that the Kurds would meekly go back to submission to Baghdad after Rumsfeld gives them lots of weapons and liberate the Iraqis to the South, given the penchant for ethnic cleansing among the states in the region? Who's going to take away their guns?

quote: Why would the US be totally opposed to a democratic Iraq that is friendly to Iran? The point of democratizing Iraq is to encourage democracy in other states in the region and Iran in particular. A Shiite-led democracy in Iraq would provide a great example for Iranian democracy proponents, possibly hastening the removal of the Ayatollahs. Sounds like a great thing from a US perspective, as long as the Iraqi government is friendly to us as well as Iran.

We've already given up on the reformists. Hence, the reason for dumping Khatami, "Axis of Evil," etc. Shrub is taking a hard-line stance towards Iran, there's no indication that this policy will change. Furthermore, we're not about to alienate the Sunni interests already in power. Not only would that royally piss off the Saudis, it would turn Iraq into a bloody Civil War. We aren't about to committ are resources into that fight or let Iran play a part.

	09-02-2003 02:58									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman *beats drums and sacrafices a virgin, all the while shaking a bone rattle and dancing around a large fire*

Sounds like a party!

	09-02-2003 03:05									#59
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quote: The third strike against a policy of containment, according to those who have called for war, is that such a policy is unlikely to stop Saddam from getting nuclear weapons. Once he gets them, so the argument runs, a host of really bad things will happen. For example, President Bush has warned that Saddam intends to “blackmail the world”; likewise, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice believes he would use nuclear weapons to “blackmail the entire international community.” Others fear a nuclear arsenal would enable Iraq to invade its neighbors and then deter the United States from ousting the Iraqi army as it did in 1991. Even worse, Saddam might surreptitiously slip a nuclear weapon to al Qaeda or some like-minded terrorist organization, thereby making it possible for these groups to attack the United States directly.

The article brings up these reasons and never really disproves them. He uses the Soviet Union as an example of how deterrence would prevent this, ignoring the large differences between Iraq and the USSR. North Korea is a better example of what a nuclear Iraq might be like and they've certainly managed to blackmail the world and are a significant threat of selling weapons to Islamic fundies.

All in all, there are few good reasons to continue a costly containment policy when Saddam can be removed so easily.

Of course, what would one expect from Foreign Policy? Foreign Affairs is sooo much better...

	09-02-2003 03:06									#60
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quote: Why would the US be totally opposed to a democratic Iraq that is friendly to Iran?