11-02-2003 03:25									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The reason I'm pushing the issue is that no one apart from me seems to care that Vox is a horrible neighbour.

I care, Dominae. It's just that now would not be a good time for settling accounts.

	11-02-2003 03:25									#62
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Does this look okay?

Perfect.

	11-02-2003 03:37									#63
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Does this look okay?

Not in my opinion. Altogether too much pusy-footing around the diplomatic issues for my liking.

I think it very unwise to defer research for what 'might' happen a few turns from now with some other 'possible' partners. If something else happens, great. Just don't count on it.

This is a competitive game, people. We had best start looking after our interests first or we could very well end up having our heads handed to us.

Having Vox start research on Poly or Math and then having to change later hurts us in no way whatsoever.

	11-02-2003 03:55									#64
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Suggesting that Vox build up some Gold instead of wasting Beakers is a sign of friendship. I'm doubtful that Vox really sees it as such, but maybe they'll come to trust us by instinct. In any case, that's the way Nathan wants to deal with them.

But I agree about the "looking after our interests" bit. As I said before, getting Vox to trust us does not mean selling our souls.

Overall, though, Nathan's message gets our point across.


Dominae

	11-02-2003 04:00									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae But we seem to agreeing on this. The reason I'm pushing the issue is that no one apart from me seems to care that Vox is a horrible neighbour.

Before you start calling Vox a horrible neighbor, keep in mind that we were in effect threatening Vox with extinction if they didn't settle for borders acceptable to us. How's that for being a horrible neighbor?

The more I think about it, the less unreasonable Vox's actions seem. Jon and I negotiated based on my mistaken count of how many cities each side would end up with. Basically, what Vox did when they founded Dissidentville was find an exceptionally effective way to say, "Since you'll have two more cities than you thought, we want these couple extra tiles or the deal's off." If we're miffed, it's mostly because they deprived us of the opportunity to bully them into accepting the borders we wanted instead of the ones they wanted.

Nathan

	11-02-2003 04:09									#66
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If Vox has (or develops) expenses that compete with research for gold, or if they have an opportunity to make a tech deal that involves their paying gold, having them waste gold switching research could work against our interests. Also, once they start down another path, getting them to accept our guidance to research some other direction would be more difficult. There's more involved in my thinking than just generosity toward Vox.

Also, I view Mathematics and especially Polytheism as being less on our high-priority tech paths than the various offspring of Writing are. So even (and perhaps especially) if we don't line up anything with other teams, I think having Vox aim at one of Writing's offspring seems like the way to go.

Nathan

Last edited by nbarclay on 11-02-2003 at 04:34

	11-02-2003 04:14									#67
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The proposal looks good, although I also don't like to set Vox's research on idle, even though it may be reasonable. If we do so, we should at least explain them why.

	11-02-2003 04:19									#68
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay keep in mind that we were in effect threatening Vox with extinction if they didn't settle for borders acceptable to us.

Funny how people can have wildly different accounts of the same event. As I recall, we proposed either 1) a REX contest, or 2) mutually agreed-upon borders. Never once was extinction mentioned. I would think giving them the option was very nice of us. And this was exactly our purpose: to make Vox feel like we want them as viable partners.

quote: Basically, what Vox did when they founded Dissidentville was find an exceptionally effective way to say, "Since you'll have two more cities than you thought, we want these couple extra tiles or the deal's off."

Here's another exceptionally effective way of saying the same thing: "Since you'll have two more cities than you thought, we want these couple extra tiles or the deal's off." Call it diplomatic negotations. What they did was effective and got their message across, but it was not a peaceful action. To use yet another real-world example, if a company goes into negotiations with a union and proceeds to lay off a few workers during these negotiations, are they "effectively getting their message across"? Sure, but not if they want to remain popular.

quote: If we're miffed, it's mostly because they deprived us of the opportunity to bully them into accepting the borders we wanted instead of the ones they wanted.

True, we did want to bully them into giving us more land. But that's not why we're (I, at least) miffed. We're miffed because they took our gift as partners and abused it.


Dominae

	11-02-2003 05:21									#69
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How about replacing the research paragraph with the following so I can go ahead and send the rest?

quote: In regard to suggestions for what tech you should research next, I'll have to address that issue separately. The situation is complex enough, especially with the possibility of trades in addition to what our two civs research ourselves, that we haven't yet reached a firm conclusion for what to suggest to you.

	11-02-2003 05:38									#70
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Is there a real benefit to having Vox accumulate coin? Is that benefit more to us than if we have Vox research towards a goal?

What goal would we like Vox to research towards?

I think that last question goes a long way to deciding what we should say to them. What are our research plans after Writing? Nathan, as chief economist you should have a large say in them. What do you feel we should research next? How can Vox best help us with that? Anybody else?

	11-02-2003 05:39									#71
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You could send that, and we could follow up ASAP with suggestions based on a plan.

	11-02-2003 05:51									#72
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One possibility would be to have Vox research Code of Laws while we go for Literature and then Philosophy. That would set things up for the two of us to build Libraries to speed up our research and/or for us to go for the Great Library if we still want to and not delay the bid for Republic too much. (I'm starting to have serious reservations about the Great Library project, which I'm posting in a separate message.) Indeed, if we push research, the delay waiting for Vox to research a little bit more expensive tech could probably be more than made up by having libraries to help support our research as we work toward Republic. (My bet is that Vox will take at least as long on a cost 10 tech as we will on a 10 and a 7 combined now that Tempest is in operation.)

	11-02-2003 07:38									#73
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You guys are over-arguing the issue of Vox.

*For the moment* we are heavily cooperating with them. They have evidenced a lack of both organization and skill, and have done some things we don;t like... these actions (or lack thereof) will continue to influence our attitude / behavior towards them.

Don;t sweat it... we will continually evaluate our relationship with Vox... until they are dead. (Sorry Nathan, gotta take that stance).

	12-02-2003 00:41									#74
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I have to agree with Theseus, right now we are working on a constant changing policy, both in the internal affairs, and in our dealings with Vox as well. But our relations seem to stabilize, especially if they accept the tech proposal. I would have said such a proposal will arouse Vox suspicion, but i think they seem to be less afraid now, and more inclined on cooperation (especially after boldly placing dissidentville in a very vulnerable position). Anyhow, once we get contact- we no longer really need Vox- sure, they can help, but by then we'll play in the big boys league, and the rest will be history (for Vox... ).