09-02-2003 12:41									#31
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France and Germany are totally marginalized, their idiotic leadership has seen to it. Imagine, just ignoring the Iraqi army...sending in guys with baby blue helmets like they are morally bullet proof and have an absolute right to wander around the place. What can the world view of these leaders be? It just leaves me at a total loss. Were they drunk?

	09-02-2003 13:00									#32
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They REFUSED to discuss their plan w/ Rumsfeld! Won't even tell him about it. Also, the French and Germans put the plan forward without even mentioning it to the US. -FOX news

Major slap in the face.

	09-02-2003 23:25									#33
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Lancer : do you think Rumsfeld is the only idiotic diplomat out there
We in Europe are as idiot, if not more, than you !

About the plan : I don't think it is as idiotic as it seems. Surely Saddam will hate seeing is country occupied, but he may hate the alternative (country scorched, and him killed) even more.
An occupying military will make it much harder for him to move his labs around, and declaring war to it would be extremely dangerous (UN soldiers are heavily armed, and you can bet the UN will go with full military potential there)
It is also a smart move in realopolitik : UN troops are composed of national troops, and Europe will take a large part in the ground forces. French and German troops will then have a significant role if a war should occur, and would get some of the spoils of war.
The US might find the plan acceptabel : it mostly pospones the war, but is much less costly for the American taxpayer (others participate in the dirty work)
The true question is whether Iraq will accept the plan. It might find it's a humiliating diktat (which it is), but it might also find this solution less humiliating than an already-lost war. I'm eager to hear the Iraqi reaction.

	09-02-2003 23:28									#34
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If you scare Kim, he's going to launch all his sh1t... mutually assured destruction... HELLO!!!??

But pro-war people don't bother to think ahead anyways

	09-02-2003 23:34									#35
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I think this plan simply doesn´t work. It is also much too late to come up with something like this...

	09-02-2003 23:36									#36
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Ooooo

"Launch all his ****"

Has he been flinging his stuffing about the palace again?

	09-02-2003 23:37									#37
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Sh1t = his WMD...

	09-02-2003 23:46									#38
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I agree with BeBro.

Here's Powell's response...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...4-2003Feb9.html

Last edited by DanS on 09-02-2003 at 23:58

	10-02-2003 00:02									#39
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Ahhh, now I get it. Thanks Sava.

	10-02-2003 00:20									#40
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quote: So France and Germany support an invasion, just not by America

That is exactly the point. They want it to be by U.N., not the States. So they try to undermine the U.S. position and force them to act as part of the U.N. instead of as the only great power.

quote: France and Germany are totally marginalized

Sure, it's not like Russia and China support their position. Ooopsss... They do.

	10-02-2003 00:23									#41
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nah the Americans don't support the plan, thus France & Germany are "totally marginalised"

	10-02-2003 00:27									#42
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Here's an op-ed that I assume lays out the French-German alternative...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6-2003Feb7.html

As for undermining US plans, would a true ally do this? Are France and Germany trying to set themselves up as an alternative alliance?

	10-02-2003 00:29									#43
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Russia and China eh?

*Adds them to the list of countries that don't get Iraqi contracts*

	10-02-2003 00:30									#44
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Apparently Powell is a little ticked off that the frogs and krauts didn't even bother to tell him they were going to put a proposal forward. Wasn't it the axis of weasel who was whining last year that the U.S. shouldn't do anything without at least informing htem first?

I guess what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

	10-02-2003 00:33									#45
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just another example of the same old story, repeating itself.

We are continually held to a double standard. WE have to endorse Kyoto, but the biggest polluters are exempt. We have to consult first, Europe does not.....patterns repeating.....::shakes head::

-=Vel=-

	10-02-2003 00:37									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Here's an op-ed that I assume lays out the French-German alternative... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6-2003Feb7.html As for undermining US plans, would a true ally do this? Are France and Germany trying to set themselves up as an alternative alliance?

I guess we get the situation where the US fails to consult with its European allies, go unilaterally into something and thus they retaliate. Nothing exactly clever or condonable but understandable.

Plus I believe the EU is cutting emissions down, is the US? you produce something ridicuously high like 25% of the world's polluting emissions for 2% of the population?

	10-02-2003 00:37									#47
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I am pissed at France and Germany right to the core. So are alot of Americans. That means alot of BMWs and Mercedes...and whatever the frogs make, aren't going to sell too well. They keep it up and people are going to start spray painting slogans like '**** Germany' on German cars.

Might not be nice, but tough luck.

	10-02-2003 00:39									#48
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I guess we get the situation where the US fails to consult with its European allies, go unilaterally into something and thus they retaliate.

When did we fail to consult?

Plus I believe the EU is cutting emissions down, is the US? you produce something ridicuously high like 25% of the world's polluting emissions for 2% of the population?

What's that have to do with Iraq?

FYI: The US also has a ridiculously high percentage of all economic activity.

	10-02-2003 00:40									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I am pissed at France and Germany right to the core. So are alot of Americans. That means alot of BMWs and Mercedes...and whatever the frogs make, aren't going to sell too well. They keep it up and people are going to start spray painting slogans like '**** Germany' on their cars. Might not be nice, but tough luck.

Now, do you understand why people don't like Americans? You did exactly the same to them what they just did to you, and when they started shouting stuff like "America sucks!" you complain they're all envious Anti-Americans or europussies.

Ah sweet irony.

	10-02-2003 00:42									#50
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Like I give a **** if 'people' don't like Americans.

	10-02-2003 00:44									#51
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Gee, let's think real, real hard about why Germany and France are so reluctant for war in Iraq...

Maybe because they experienced, firsthand, two of the most bloody wars in world history? Maybe because they lost 25% of men between 18 and 34, and a certain race of people were driven to near-extinction?

I don't blame either country one bit for dragging their feet: they knew all along that the inspections were nothing but window dressing before the pre-emptive slaughter could have a whiff of legitimacy.

	10-02-2003 00:46									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Like I give a **** if 'people' don't like Americans.

Hehehe.

Its statements like these which lead me to believe America will soon be replaced by someone else very soon

	10-02-2003 00:48									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Like I give a **** if 'people' don't like Americans.

You might do next time the supermarkt down the street will be blown up by some America hater.

	10-02-2003 00:51									#54
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DanS... you crack me up... anyone that doesn't agree with the US and doesn't approve of our unilateral action is our enemy

And Lancer... I love how you constantly use ethnic slurs to describe other peoples. I can't speak for everyone else, but it sure makes me want to hear and take your opinions seriously.

Saddam is not going to make or distribute WMD's to terrorists with 20k UN troops and more inspectors on his ass. As I said in another thread, he's neutralized. But conservatives are too damn stubborn to admit somebody else has a better solution than a murderous war.

	10-02-2003 00:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave Gee, let's think real, real hard about why Germany and France are so reluctant for war in Iraq... Maybe because they experienced, firsthand, two of the most bloody wars in world history? Maybe because they lost 25% of men between 18 and 34, and a certain race of people were driven to near-extinction? I don't blame either country one bit for dragging their feet: they knew all along that the inspections were nothing but window dressing before the pre-emptive slaughter could have a whiff of legitimacy.

You're probably a Redwings fan, I'm surprised you can think rationally jk Detroit Dave...

Seriously, this is probably one of the more intelligent posts in this thread.

	10-02-2003 00:54									#56
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I seriously doubt Saddam will allow UN troops in Iraq... SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA TO ME.

	10-02-2003 00:57									#57
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QUOTE:
_______________________________________
Originally posted by DetroitDave
Gee, let's think real, real hard about why Germany and France are so reluctant for war in Iraq...

Maybe because they experienced, firsthand, two of the most bloody wars in world history? Maybe because they lost 25% of men between 18 and 34, and a certain race of people were driven to near-extinction?

I don't blame either country one bit for dragging their feet: they knew all along that the inspections were nothing but window dressing before the pre-emptive slaughter could have a whiff of legitimacy.
_______________________________________

Perhaps because France has $60 billion in oil deals with Saddam? The Russians also spent $8 Billion on oil deals as well.

No nation in the UN (including the US), thinks of the world. Every nation thinks of their own self interests. To think that the French and Germans are dragging thier feet to avert war to save lives cracks me up.

	10-02-2003 00:58									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 I seriously doubt Saddam will allow UN troops in Iraq... SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA TO ME.

You think he has a choice?

	10-02-2003 00:59									#59
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anything that is effective and prevents war is something that needs to be pursued.

only problem with French & German plan for Bush is that it'll not distract the American people with a long war from the ailing American economy and his inability to fix it.

As an American said recently and was quoted on BBC teletext,

"I trust Bush with my daughter. I trust Clinton with the economy"

	10-02-2003 00:59									#60
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quote: Perhaps because France has $60 billion in oil deals with Saddam? The Russians also spent $8 Billion on oil deals as well. No nation in the UN (including the US), thinks of the world. Every nation thinks of their own self interests. To think that the French and Germans are dragging thier feet to avert war to save lives cracks me up.

Yet it's wrong when people suggest the US is in it for oil?