12-02-2003 02:23									#61
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Like I said all there is to gain is respect, nothing practical

	12-02-2003 02:36									#62
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You know, historically "protectorate" has generally been synonymous with "colony" or "puppet state". Which lucky UN country was going to be granted possession of Iraq? Is germany still sore about losing its "protectorates" at the end of WW2?

	12-02-2003 03:16									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ned How do you guys in Germany feel about the proposal that you and the French have dual citizenship?

All what pushes a united Europe ahead, is welcome. I won't start to eat frogs, though.

	12-02-2003 03:24									#64
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quote: Originally posted by MBD It looks like the Greens are stuck with the SPD. Is there any chance they'd ever join a Christian Democratic government? And for that matter, would the Free Democrats ever join an SPD government?

There were already coalitions SPD+FDP at federal level in the 70's/early 80's under Willy Brandt and Helmut Schmidt. But the Christian Democrats have problems with the Greens so far. There are discussions about Black(CDU)/Green coalitions on communal level, but any coalition on a higher level seems unlikely so far.

The worst option, of course, is a big coalition SPD/CDU. They just can't get along. There were multiple attempts on federal and state level, but they hardly did any good.

	12-02-2003 03:54									#65
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We will soon get a European/German dual citizenship. Thats enough for me.

	12-02-2003 05:43									#66
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If the French have dual citizenship, could they vote in German elections? And vis-a-versa?

	12-02-2003 05:45									#67
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My dad is a duel national and his EU passport say EU and not UK. It does have a line talking about whivch member state he's from but the old UK/France/Germany passports are no more.

	12-02-2003 05:51									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ned How do you guys in Germany feel about the proposal that you and the French have dual citizenship?

A main problem in Europe is, every country cooks his own soup.
The better way is, all European Nations cooperate against the "Evil".
Isn't it?

	12-02-2003 07:20									#69
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quote: Nobody here does that, so you can have him.

We'll take him. Americans appreciate real leaders.

	12-02-2003 13:19									#70
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quote: If the French have dual citizenship, could they vote in German elections? And vis-a-versa?

Don't know. To be honest, I don't even know if this proposal is real or only a rumor. Most likely the latter. There may be thoughts to begin a common European citizenship with this kind of experiment. As for voting... why should a citizen of the European Federal State of France elect the government of the European Federal State of Germany? And if they cast votes for the common European government, why should it matter, at what side of the state border they cast it?

As Main_Brain mentioned, in the end there will be a dual European/National citizenship, or maybe only a European, as the border between Germany and France won't matter more than the border between Georgia and Florida.

quote: We'll take him. Americans appreciate real leaders.

That explains your current choice.

	12-02-2003 13:29									#71
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Bush may not be the smartest, but he is a good leader. Like Reagan in that.

	12-02-2003 13:32									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith But when the US argued for sanctions, (part of?) the EU argued for doing nothing, which fits my theory but not yours.

To which argument are you referring there?

About citizenship: Dual citizenship would mean the right to vote in both countries in principle; practically in the country of residence.

There already is the Union citizenship, which includes ia the right to vote in local and european elections.

	12-02-2003 21:01									#73
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HO:

If I understood correctly, you were saying that EU was being peacenik in reaction to US warmonger.

My alternative hypothesis is that EU had to be dragged into doing anything in the first place.

EU opposition to armed intervention would fit either theory.

EU opposition to sanctions would fit the latter theory but not the former.

	12-02-2003 22:07									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin My dad is a duel national and his EU passport say EU and not UK. It does have a line talking about whivch member state he's from but the old UK/France/Germany passports are no more.

Passports of European Union memberstates have been standardised, true. However, they also clearly show which memberstate issued it. My UK passport, for example (only a few years old), is the same colour and layout as every other EU-style passport. Inside, certain bits of information are given in the major languages of the EU. However, the royal seal of the UK is displayed on the front of the passport (and the seal of the republic is on the French version, the eagle on the German, etc) and the inside cover has a message from the Foreign Office, in the name of Her Majesty, urging free travel to the bearer, blah blah blah.

So they still give quite a bit of distinction to the issuing memberstate, while also showing that the state is part of the larger EU.

The French-German dual citizenship thing is something that came up in the recent anniversary of the end of hostilities between the countries. Me thinks a lot of what was said at that was the French making the federal minded Germans feel all smiley. Considering their emphisis on a Europe of nations (led by France of course), the talk about a quasi-unification with Germany didn't sit too right.

All citizens of an EU memberstate also have European citizenship in addition to their state's citizenship. It gives certain rights such as being able to use other nations representatives if you're in a country where your nation has no representation (If I'm in need of consular services in Northlandia, where the UK has no representation but the French do, I can go to the French embassy). Also, you can vote in European elections no matter what memberstate you're in, as long as you're registered to vote in that state. Finally, you can vote in local elections of the state you live in, but not national elections (if I, a Brit, lived in Paris, I could vote for the city mayor but not for the MP).

I think there maybe more benefits to the European citizenship but I'm not too sure.

	12-02-2003 22:35									#75
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AS:
"EU opposition to sanctions would fit the latter theory but not the former."

I meant what opposition to which sanctions you are talking about, when you said "the EU argued for doing nothing".

	12-02-2003 23:12									#76
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IIRC, France (and other EU countries) argued for eliminating then-current sanctions.

	12-02-2003 23:23									#77
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back on topic - reports today that its confirmed Schroeder was source of leak -everybody seems pissed, German papers calling for Schroeders resignation, Fischer looking embarassed.

Any updates from over there????

	12-02-2003 23:46									#78
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It is known that Schröder has spoken with reporter of the "Spiegel", but the contents of this conversation aren't exactly known.
It seems the "Spiegel" has interpreted some wrongly.

	13-02-2003 00:04									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild However, the royal seal of the UK is displayed on the front of the passport (and the seal of the republic is on the French version, the eagle on the German, etc)

Its no Eagle.. its a Vulture :=)

	13-02-2003 13:03									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith IIRC, France (and other EU countries) argued for eliminating then-current sanctions.

The military/dual-use sanctions, or the general economic sanctions?

There have been several initiatives to modify the sanction regime for humanitarian and economic interests, in part based on the assessments by the UN that they have a counterproductive effect. I do not see how this equals a pacifist stance. IIRC, one of those intitiatives came from Washington under "smart sanctions", or so.

	13-02-2003 13:17									#81
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark back on topic - reports today that its confirmed Schroeder was source of leak -everybody seems pissed, German papers calling for Schroeders resignation, Fischer looking embarassed. Any updates from over there????

Just saw in morning TV a common statement of the Social Democrats and the Greens, that there are no discords between both parties. They of course lie, after all they are politicians, but I doubt there's anything serious. Apparently things are as usual greatly exaggerated there over the pond, just like this "hate America" bull.

	13-02-2003 17:41									#82
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europe is a joke. I don't understand how y'all can support and pass a resolution, and then try and weasel out, in any way possible, of the ramifications of that resolution. Then when the US acts on the UN mandate, popular opinion is against us????? seriously, WTF?

	13-02-2003 18:47									#83
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Cowboys...

	13-02-2003 20:52									#84
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler The military/dual-use sanctions, or the general economic sanctions?

Dont recall which it was.

quote: [SIZE=1] There have been several initiatives to modify the sanction regime for humanitarian and economic interests, in part based on the assessments by the UN that they have a counterproductive effect. I do not see how this equals a pacifist stance. IIRC, one of those intitiatives came from Washington under "smart sanctions", or so.

IIRC, France opposed the Smart Sanctions, which the US proposed in response to claims that existing sanctions were counterporductive.

	13-02-2003 20:56									#85
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"France opposed the Smart Sanctions, which the US proposed in response to claims that existing sanctions were counterporductive."

Does that make the French warmongers?

	13-02-2003 21:00									#86
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No, I just said the opposite.
As far as I can tell, the French (and possibly some other EU countries) have at one time or another opposed every effort to bring even diplomatic pressure to bear on Saddam.

	13-02-2003 21:05									#87
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But the position meant that the initial sanctions stayed.

Diplomatic pressure vs diplomatic reward? I do not think the proposals for the liftig of sanctions were unconditional.

It's a murky issue with several interests influencing it, so I very much doubt you can draw the conslusions from it you did, especially with only a rough idea of what the proposals were.

	13-02-2003 21:14									#88
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OK, lets try the converse.

Can you identify any specific French or EU policy for dealing with Iraq? You can't count the current "double or triple the number of inspectors and give them more time" line because they would not have adopted such a policy had the US not dragged them into it.

	13-02-2003 21:26									#89
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"Can you identify any specific French or EU policy for dealing with Iraq?"

None that has been really consistent. Neither had the Clinton administration. But I'm still not sure how this constitutes a pacifist stance IYO?

	13-02-2003 21:58									#90
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Personally I'd prefered the 'Old China' Solution.
Wait till he dies.