12-02-2003 21:38									#31
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT "Muslims' doctrine and banner should be clear in fighting for the sake of God. He who fights to raise the word of God will fight for God's sake. Under these circumstances, there will be no harm if the interests of Muslims converge with the interests of the socialists in the fight against the crusaders, despite our belief in the infidelity of socialists. The jurisdiction of the socialists and those rulers has fallen a long time ago. Socialists are infidels wherever they are, whether they are in Baghdad or Aden. "

There's another interpretation where "socialists" refer to the secular government in Baghdad, and "crusaders" refer to the West (Christians).

	12-02-2003 21:48									#32
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I think the fact that the Bush administration says this is proof that there is an Iraq-Al Qaeda connection is damaging to their credibility. Is there something secret about it that they aren't telling us?

	12-02-2003 21:50									#33
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But UR, lefties who are against war are terrorists

	12-02-2003 23:30									#34
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quote: I also note that there was no mention of anything that happened past October, 2001, though I could've easily missed something. Given the vagueness of his plan of action and the lack of specifics, it would not surprise me to find out that this tape was recorded quite a while ago. No mention of the UN resolution, France/Germany, and the terror attacks in Indonesia? No mention of the Shuttle, or stock market dives, or anything??? Hmmmmm.

tho i agree it is most probably the tape was not made recently, i dont think bin Laden's lack of mentioning these things is evidence of this. Why would he mention this stuff? Just because he didnt doesnt mean it hadnt happened yet at they time of the tape's creation.

	12-02-2003 23:49									#35
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT He obviously has no problem biting the hand that feeds him. He holds the Left in contempt, finding them weak, but is not above using them to further his own ends. He knows that the Right would likely wage war with fury and might and, oddly enough, OBL respects that - his words re: GWB did not show anywhere near the contempt he feels towards his socialist allies in the Western media.

That's right into tinfoil hat territory, and a vicious slam against lefties to boot. Do you really think leftists are supporting terrorism?

	13-02-2003 01:03									#36
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JohnT, by socialists, bin Laden means the Ba'thists in Iraq, not people like me in the relatively free world.

quote: PURPORTED TO BE OSAMA BIN LADEN (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): In the name of Allah, the merciful and the compassionate, a message to our brothers in Iraq. Greetings, all you who believe in Allah and worship him as he deserves and do not die unless you are Muslims. We are following with great interest and utmost concern the preparations by the crusaders to occupy the capital of Islam formally (ph) and to rob the wealth of Muslims and to appoint over you an agent government that follows Washington and Tel Aviv, like all other treacherous and spy Arab governments, in preparation for the founding of the greater Israel. So may Allah help us. We wish to stress on the threshold of this war, the war of the infidels and disbelievers, which the U.S. is launching with a number of its allies and agents. First, the sincerity of intentions for the fighting should be for the sake of Allah only, no other, and not for the victory of national minorities or for the aid of the infidel regimes in all Arab countries, including Iraq. Allah Almighty said those who believe fight for the sake of Allah and those who did not believe fight for the sake of the Devil. So fight the allies of the Devil for the Devil is weak. Second, we remind that victory comes from Allah Almighty alone, and we only have to do our best through preparations and incitement and jihad. Allah Almighty said, all you who believe, if you fight for the sake of Allah he will give you victory and strengthen your feet. And we should hurry to repent to Allah from our sins, especially the biggest sins. As the prophet, peace be upon, him said, "Avoid the seven big sins; not believing in Allah, magic, killing of souls that God forbid unless it's justified, taking interest, taking the money of the orphan, and accusing unwittingly (ph) pious Muslim women of sins." That is agreed to. And also, the rest of the big sins, such as adultery and alcohol and disobeying the parents and giving false testimony. We should rush to obey Allah in general, especially to mention Allah at the time when the armies meet. Abu-Adarda (ph), may Allah bless him, said, "A good deed at the time of the invasion for you fight with your actions." Third, it became apparent to us through our defense and fighting of the American enemy that it relies mainly in war on the psychological war, given its huge media machine and reliance on air strike to hide its main weak points, which are fear and cowardice and absence of the fighting spirit among American soldiers. Those soldiers are completely convinced about the injustice of their government and its lies, and they lack a fair cause to fight for. And they are rather fighting for the capitalist and interest hoarders (ph), and weapons and oil merchants, including the criminal gang at the White House, which harbors crusader hatreds and personal hatreds from Bush the father. It's also become apparent to us that the most effective way to empty the air power of its contents is by establishing trenches that are covered and camouflaged in large numbers. I have previously pointed that out last year in the Tora Bora mountain (ph), that great fight in which the power of belief overcame the material power of evil by holding fast to the principles of Allah Almighty. And I will mention to you a part of that great battle to show the extent of their cowardice on one hand, and the degree of effectiveness of trenches in the war of attrition against them on the other. Our number were at least 300 mujahideen. We dug 100 trenches spread over one square mile at the rate of one trench per (inaudible) to avoid incurring injuries from the strikes. And our centers were targeted from the first hour of the American strike on (inaudible) 20th, the year 1422 Hegira, or corresponding to October 7th, 2001. We were subjected to intense strikes and then it continued intermittently until the middle of Ramadan, and after that, on the morning of the 12 in Ramadan, intensive air strikes began after the American leader was certain that Al Qaida elements were in Tora Bora, including this humble servant, and that rebel fighter Dr. Aminizara (ph). And the flights were around the clock, so not a second passed without military planes flying over our heads day and night. Wherein in the Pentagon, command center, devoted with all its allied forces, was determined with all its allied forces to blow up this tiny spot and annihilate it. So the airplanes poured fire over us, especially after they ended their mission in Afghanistan. The American airplanes hit us with smart bombs and heavy bombs, and string (ph) bombs, and also used bombs that penetrated caves and also bombers like B-52. The circuits were two hours over our heads, and each time fired 20 to 30 bombs. And the C-130 airplanes bombed us with carpet bombs and other murderous bombs. Despite this tremendous bombing, which was coupled with the outrageous media campaign, that was unprecedented on this time (inaudible), not to mention the hypocritical (ph) forces used to fight us for two continuous months, we managed to confront all their daily attacks, thanks be to Allah, and we forced them back each time defeated, carrying their dead and injured. Despite all that, the American forces did not dare to invade our location. So what clearer proof is there to their cowardice and fear and lies and their alleged (inaudible) surrounding their forces? The conclusion of the battle was the great and miserable failure of the forces of evil over a small group of mujahideen, a group of 300 in the trenches inside one square mile, at a temperature that was 10 degrees below 0. The result of the battle was the death of a few of us, 6 percent approximately. We prayed that Allah will accept them as martyrs. And as for our injuries in the trenches, it was at the rate of 2 percent, thanks be to Allah. So if all the international forces of evil could not achieve its goals over one square mile and a small number of mujahideen with very humble capabilities, how can these evil forces achieve victory over the Islamic world? This is impossible, Allah willing, if the people held fast to their religion and insisted on fighting for his sake. So our brother fighters in Iraq, do not be scared by what Americans promote about the greatness of its forces and their smart bombs and laser-guided bombs, for smart bombs have no mentionable effect in the middle of mountains and trenches and plains and forests. They must have an obvious target. As for the trenches, they are well camouflaged, and neither smart bombs nor dumb bombs will be able to get them unless by haphazard bombing which squanders the ammunition of the enemy and its money. So use trenches. As Amar (ph), may peace be upon him, said, "Take cover with the land." That is take the land as a shield, for that is sufficient to exhaust the ammunition of the enemy within a few months. As for the daily fight, then it's something that can be easily dealt with. We also advise you to lead the enemy to prolonged and heavy and exhaustive fighting using the camouflage defense fight in plains, mountains, farms and cities. What the enemy fears most is the war of cities and streets, that war that the enemy expects tremendous, grave losses in. So we also stress the importance of suicide operations against the enemy, those operations that cause so much harm to the enemy in the U.S. and Israel and they have never seen anything like them in their history, thanks be to Allah. We also stress that anyone who assists the U.S. from among the Iraqi hypocrites or Arab rulers, or those who accept their actions and follow them in their crusader war, whether by fighting with them or through providing administrative support or any other form of support or help, even verbal, to kill Muslims in Iraq, they should know that they are infidels deviating from their religion and their blood is sanctioned. Allah Almighty said, "All you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as supporters. Some of them support each other, and those who take them as supporters then they are a part of them." Allah doesn't guide unjust people. We also stress that Muslims have to move and incite and organize the nation into armies to face these great events and harsh conditions, and to liberate themselves from the slavery of these unjust and infidel regimes enslaved by the U.S. From among the most ready for liberation are Jordan, Morocco, Nigeria and Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. It's also not hidden that this crusader war targets first and foremost Islam, irrespective of whether the Ba'ath Party and Saddam were deposed or not. The Muslims in general and the Iraqis in particular have to prepare for jihad against this unjust campaign, and have to make sure to load up on ammunition and weapons, for that is their duty. Allah Almighty said, "Let them take care and pay attention to their weapons." The infidels wished you would forget about your weapons and your belongings so that they can launch an all-out attack on them. It's known that fighting to achieve victory for the infidels is not permissible. And you know the Muslim's belief should be clear when fighting that it should be for the sake of Allah. As the prophet, peace be upon him, said, "Whoever fought to raise the word of Allah, then he's fighting for the sake of Allah." And it doesn't harm in these conditions the interest of Muslims to agree with those of the socialists in fighting against the crusaders, even though we believe the socialists are infidels. For the socialists and the rulers have lost their legitimacy a long time ago, and the socialists are infidels regardless of where they are, whether in Baghdad or in Aden (ph). And this fighting about to take place resembles the fight with the Romans earlier and the collusion of interest doesn't harm, for the Muslims' fight against the Romans was due to the collusion of the interests with the Persians. Before concluding, we stress the importance of optimism and keeping good spirits, and warn against pessimism and dejection and fear. The prophet said, "Be a harbinger of good news and do not spread pessimism." And he also said, "The voice of Abultaha (ph) addressing the army is better than a thousand men." It was mentioned in the narrative that a man told Herod (ph) on the day of the Armuk (ph) battle how numerous are the Romans and how few are the Muslims. So Herod (ph) told him, "Wrong is that what you said, for the armies do not achieve victory by mere numbers, but are defeated through leydown (ph) and such words." So let the words of Allah be before your eyes: "If you know the enemy, then hit their necks and let your encounter with the crusaders follow what the poet said. Do not let your aim be anything but striking beneath our (ph) necks." In conclusion, I advise you and myself to be pious to Allah and (inaudible) in open, and to be patient and persevere in the jihad so the victory is patient for one hour. And I also advise myself and you to mention Allah and pray to him. Allah Almighty said, "All you who believe, if you meet the enemy hold fast and mention the name of Allah often so that you may win." Oh Allah, the sender of the book, and mover of the clouds and defeater of the enemy, defeat them. Let us be victorious and let us be victorious over them. Let us be victorious and let us be victorious over them. Let us be victorious and let us be victorious over them. Let us be victorious and let us be victorious over them. And as Allah said, "Make us do good things on Earth and good things in eternity, and protect us against torture of Hell." And may Allah have peace upon his prophet, Mohammed.

	13-02-2003 01:06									#37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by chegitz guevara
JohnT, by socialists, bin Laden means the Ba'thists in Iraq, not people like me in the relatively free world.
/QUOTE]


And i bet he aint even heard of SDUSA.

	13-02-2003 01:21									#38
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Most of the secular Arab political groups call themselves socialists. When OBL says socialists in Aden and Baghdad are infadels he's talking about the Arab governments which haven't cow towed to him.

	13-02-2003 01:22									#39
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The Bush administration's attempts to forge a link between OBL and SH with this tape are risible and a sign of their growing desperation. I can't believe they would even try, and what's worse, I can't believe that respectable news organisations are spinning it that way (the "common cause" stuff).

If not wanting thousands of Iraqui citizens killed is evidence for common cause then most of the world is in cahoots, as a previous poster so eloquently put it, with OBL. So Bush must have been right, if we aren't with him, we must be members of Al Quaeda.

Having said that, I don't think OBL has any friendly feelings towards the Socialist Worker's Party or any other such organisation, notwithstanding that his comments about "socialists" were aimed at the Ba'ath party.

	13-02-2003 01:28									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin He's refering to Byzantines as Romans.

as BTw, the byzantines themselves did. "byzantine" is a modern word for that empire, IIUC.

	13-02-2003 01:29									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I think the fact that the Bush administration says this is proof that there is an Iraq-Al Qaeda connection is damaging to their credibility. Is there something secret about it that they aren't telling us?

yes there is. the secret is, many people are stupid enough to believe it.

	13-02-2003 01:40									#42
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aketay the ombbay on the ucktray and ivedray to shingtonway!

Hah! Nobody can harm us! We've got duct tape!

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	13-02-2003 01:41									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko That's right into tinfoil hat territory, and a vicious slam against lefties to boot. Do you really think leftists are supporting terrorism?

:adjusts tinfoil hat:

	13-02-2003 02:11									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DanS aketay the ombbay on the ucktray and ivedray to shingtonway! Hah! Nobody can harm us! We've got duct tape!

Bortay the erationopay, heytav avehay uctday apetay! We notcanay featdeay repowerfiay of atthay gnitudemay!

	13-02-2003 03:37									#45
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Btw, Jaakko, I don't think the Left is supporting terrorism - at least, not OBL terrorists*. I also understood that UR's interpretation is the more common one before I posted my reply. So, no, I'm not a loony. Or so I've been told by my talking rabbit friend.

Otoh, I do not think that his use of the word "socialists" implies only Baghdad and Persia - at least to the average Moslem. By branding the Iraqi regime as "socialists" and then denouncing all "socialists" as infidels, he has set the workers struggle in the Islamic lands back 1,000 years - why, it's almost as if it is 0 AD there!

I can see it now: "I'm Heinrich. Me and my socialist brethren are here in Mecca too... AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!"

But, it is very interesting that both interpretations are valid - it is the Western Left that wants to avoid military conflict, and therefore pursue (for totally different reasons) a policy that is beneficial to OBL. Explain away all you want, the fact is that comment is double-edged. Adjusting my tinfoil hat, I can even pick up transmissions that whisper that his operatives can read into this release a message of "do not antagonize the Western Press", to wit:

quote: Abu-al-Darda, may God be pleased with him, said: "Perform a good deed before an attack, because you are fighting with your deeds." Third, we realized from our defence and fighting against the American enemy that, in combat, they mainly depend on psychological warfare. This is in light of the huge media machine they have.

but, damn, that just would be crazy, wouldn't it?

*Please do not construe this sentence into some sort of belief held by me that the Right doesn't support their fave terrorists.

	13-02-2003 03:52									#46
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Ohway onay! Ourway odecay ashay eenbay eachedbray! evacuateway allway asesbay, oseclay allway opsshay inway ethay allmay! oday omethingsay!

http://www.24hourlatin.com/fun/piglatin.htm


PS. Gotcha, John.

	13-02-2003 03:58									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx My bet: Our boys captures OBL in Afghanistan, shipped him to Hollywierd, where they convinced him to make a little speech. Gives the US administration more ammunition to push PatAct2 through, and gives them their "missing link" which demonstrates an OBL-Iraq link (thus providing, theoretically, sufficient proof to get a UN go-ahead vote for the war). -=Vel=- (Wag the Dog)

Why the wink?

The extraordinarily fortuitous timing of this tape smells to me. I don't think OBL is alive, and the sudden shift from video to audiotape makes digital forgery technically feasible.

18 KIA in Tora Bora is a joke, though, the confirmed body count was a bit higher than that, not counting the people who ran into tunnels and got the crispy critter treatment before being sealed in. In one particular tunnel complex, 65 to 70 were seen going in to one entrance before they were slammed, and nobody came out. Of any of the tunnel complex entrances.

John - "socialists" in OBL-ite fundie speak refers to the non-royal secular arab governments. All non-Islamic, non-Jewish foreigners get lumped into the infidel category, with the US and western European (former colonial powers) being lumped in as crusaders. The only exception are those who embrace his brand of Islam, otherwise, we're all targets, and in Islamic fundie doctrine, there are no infidel allies, of any ideology. We are all targets, for destruction, unless we convert and serve the cause of jihad.

Zionists are their own special category, of course, and the secular royal governments are all considered in the category of "treacherous and spy" governments, or various other names - that one changes all the time, but the basic deal is that they are lackeys of the US (Which is true, but that's beside the point.) who don't follow Sharia. The only "legitimate" government in the fundie world view is a fundamentalist Islamic state in strict accordance with Sharia, and nothing more. Even the Islamic Republic of Iran in the Khomeini days falls short of the al Qutb - al Maududi standard that OBL and his followers embrace(d).

OBL and his followers hardon for "socialists" goes back way before al Qaeda, to his spiritual inspiration, Sayyid al Qutb, and al Qutb's call for jihad against Nasserite Egypt. Al Qutb was tortured and eventually executed by Nasser's government because al Qutb wrote than any leader who imposed man-made law of any kind (since Sharia is divine law) was defiling Islam, and that such leaders and their governments must be overthrown in jihad.

Sharia doesn't regulate economic matters much, so OBL's "economic" scheme is about 7th century laissez-faire, with some incidental leakage of religious dogma. (that latter part is about all that distinguishes them from libertarians. ).

	13-02-2003 04:55									#48
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I declare a jihad on bin Laden and his lackey, Dubya.

	13-02-2003 05:24									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Ohway onay! Ourway odecay ashay eenbay eachedbray! evacuateway allway asesbay, oseclay allway opsshay inway ethay allmay! oday omethingsay! http://www.24hourlatin.com/fun/piglatin.htm PS. Gotcha, John.

This is so anoying

	13-02-2003 05:40									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK This is so anoying

At your service.

	13-02-2003 05:51									#51
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uckfay igpay atinlay

seriously though... if we're assuming Al Qaida's smart, you have to assume that they are prepared for the even of bin Laden's death. They probably have tons of tapes and footage that they'll release even if he's dead. I think he's probably alive because I think that maybe less than 1% of Al-Qaida has been killed as a result of the Afghan campaign. I mean, how much damage has been done to Al-Qaida if we're all out buying duck-tape and bottled water?

	13-02-2003 05:53									#52
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT But, it is very interesting that both interpretations are valid - it is the Western Left that wants to avoid military conflict, and therefore pursue (for totally different reasons) a policy that is beneficial to OBL.

Actually, the contrary is true. A fight in Iraq and protracted occupation will divert a major amount of US military and intelligence resources from hunting al Qaeda, and there is a good to excellent chance of both inflaming average man in the street Muslims against US "imperialism" in the arab world, as well as undermining friendly (i.e. lackey) monarchies if the US installs some form of pseudo-democracy in Iraq. Certainly the upside potential for al Qaeda is much higher than the downside potential.

The best the US can hope to do is avoid incitement of run ofthe mill arabs, we're sure as hell not going to make many friends among the groups al Qaeda can count on for potential support. And the drain on operational resources is a given, we just can't sustain large numbers of troops in the field indefinitely without an erosion of critical capacity - something Shelton and Myers have already alluded to, and we haven't even begun the war yet, let alone the occupation.

quote: Explain away all you want, the fact is that comment is double-edged. Adjusting my tinfoil hat, I can even pick up transmissions that whisper that his operatives can read into this release a message of "do not antagonize the Western Press", to wit: quote: Abu-al-Darda, may God be pleased with him, said: "Perform a good deed before an attack, because you are fighting with your deeds." Third, we realized from our defence and fighting against the American enemy that, in combat, they mainly depend on psychological warfare. This is in light of the huge media machine they have. but, damn, that just would be crazy, wouldn't it?

Al Qaeda has never had real dealings with the infidel press, since they consider them to be utterly ignorant of jihad and the glory of Islam. Al Qaeda's direct press relations have always been with the Islamic press, or general releases of public statements back when abu Ghaith was serving as their mouthpiece.

	13-02-2003 06:11									#53
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The extraordinarily fortuitous timing of this tape smells to me. I don't think OBL is alive, and the sudden shift from video to audiotape makes digital forgery technically feasible.

Conspiracy theorist!

Although I have to admit it would be ingenious. Too ingenious for our boys? Funnily enough, the US Government is sort of the go-to people to judge whether it's authentic-OBL fare.

	13-02-2003 06:14									#54
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The latest message - did he send me a personal cheerio?

	13-02-2003 06:53									#55
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	13-02-2003 07:00									#56
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We'll see if OBL suddenly turns up dead after this war.

	13-02-2003 10:21									#57
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT But, it is very interesting that both interpretations are valid - it is the Western Left that wants to avoid military conflict, and therefore pursue (for totally different reasons) a policy that is beneficial to OBL.

To the contrary, John. While Saddam is a dictator, he has a strong secular government in place that stymies the activities of al-Qaeda. If the US knocks it over, the situation will be more or less like the one in Afghanistan - bin Laden will have lots of elbow room to set up his networks in a power vacuum.

	13-02-2003 10:26									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Ohway onay! Ourway odecay ashay eenbay eachedbray! evacuateway allway asesbay, oseclay allway opsshay inway ethay allmay! oday omethingsay! http://www.24hourlatin.com/fun/piglatin.htm PS. Gotcha, John.

Oh, is that what that was? I thought that's some kind of silly Jaakko code.