16-02-2003 04:03									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I saw, that they offered "nothing" and accepted their deal, but didn't realize what this is good for. Why should we accept a "null" offer? And if it has a logical sense, why was it not edited in the first post?

I had assumed you were familiar with the mechanics of gift-offering. Put what you offer as a gift on the negotiating table, accept the other side's offer even though there isn't anything, and send. The reason the mechanics work that way is presumably to indicate to the game that getting nothing in return for what we offer is acceptable to us.

	16-02-2003 04:04									#32
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Is it btw wise to move the laborer in Cyclone on the game forest? If we leave him on the plains, it gets one gold, on the game forest not. And since it will grow next turn, we will almost for sure get the shields from the game forest though, while the gold we wouldn't get.

	16-02-2003 04:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I had assumed you were familiar with the mechanics of gift-offering.

You know, that I am dumb and don't understand a **** in this game.

quote: Put what you offer as a gift on the negotiating table, accept the other side's offer even though there isn't anything, and send. The reason the mechanics work that way is presumably to indicate to the game that getting nothing in return for what we offer is acceptable to us.

And where is the difference to offering the tech and accepting the offer? We do so all the time in our PBEM games, and once the other side accepts the gift, it has the tech immediately too. Offering nothing is utter nonsense.

	16-02-2003 04:09									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I say we may as well offer them the 8 gold they want. (No need to make it a gift, since they'll be sending something back.) Their request that we share the financial cost of the trade is not unreasonable, and agreeing to it without a fuss would be good for diplomatic relations.

Nathan

	16-02-2003 04:12									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Is it btw wise to move the laborer in Cyclone on the game forest? If we leave him on the plains, it gets one gold, on the game forest not. And since it will grow next turn, we will almost for sure get the shields from the game forest though, while the gold we wouldn't get.

Okay, go ahead and move the Cyclone laborer from the game forest to the mine but leave Bolderberg's laborer where he is. The new laborer in Bolderberg will certainly end up on the game forest.

	16-02-2003 04:14									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph And where is the difference to offering the tech and accepting the offer? We do so all the time in our PBEM games, and once the other side accepts the gift, it has the tech immediately too. Offering nothing is utter nonsense.

I think we're miscommunicating. The offer of "nothing" I'm talking about is not something someone makes explicitly; I'm just talking about hitting Accept when there's nothing on the other civ's side.

	16-02-2003 04:19									#37
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I am very, very sure that I hit Accept. Most likely they saw it, and set Warrior Code and Mysticism on the other side. Once they edit the deal, our "acceptance" is void. They should have just hit "Accept" too, and later open the diplo screen again, offer us their 2 techs and "Accept" as well.

	16-02-2003 04:21									#38
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I'll ask about it.

	16-02-2003 04:25									#39
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Nathan, what about gifting them 10 gold? It's a symbolic difference, but may be a good at that...

DeepO

	16-02-2003 04:29									#40
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Geez DeepO, sometimes it seems I'd rather have you for a neighbour seeing as you're always looking out for them so much...

	16-02-2003 04:30									#41
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Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of giving them 10 instead of 8, but then I'm known for being overly generous toward Vox. On the other hand, consider the fact that we're researching a cost 10 tech and they're researching a cost 6 one, so I suspect they'll have reason to appreciate us even if we don't throw in the extra gold.

	16-02-2003 04:31									#42
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Bah, I think you need to keep your neighbours happy, so they don't suspect you're dating their wives, and plundering their fridges

DeepO

	16-02-2003 04:31									#43
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Advance	Points	Theoretical cost	Beakers to research
Mathematics	8	192	192
Philosophy	6	144	144
Code of laws	10	240	217 (researching)
Literature	10	240	240
Map Making	12	288	288
Horseback Riding	5	120	at most 88
Polytheism	12	288	288

	16-02-2003 04:32									#44
	Got spare money?

By the way, Beta asked for an ETA on Code of Laws. Any objection if I give it to him, since they'll find out how fast we're researching when we're done anyhow?

	16-02-2003 04:33									#45
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So how many shall I gift them? Hurry up, I want to get done with the turn. Have an awesome SP game waiting.

	16-02-2003 04:34									#46
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What's an ETA?

	16-02-2003 04:35									#47
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Nathan: not for me. As long as you say it's an estimate, as it may be possible that we have to safe some cash, but can also grow, and thus speed it up.

Normally, I would be very careful to give this kind of info to Vox, but they have given us a lot of info, and this is certainly one piece of situation report that will be useful for them.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 04:36									#48
	Remove this text

Sir Ralph: Estimated Time of Arrival

DeepO [+1]

[edit: even managed to make a mistake in this one]

	16-02-2003 04:37									#49
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HBR: 2 other civs know it?

10 or 8 gold: I vote 10, if Nathan wraps it as a gift to Vox.
But I'm not the head-treasurer

DeepO

	16-02-2003 04:40									#50
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ETA = Estimated Time of Arrival (if you want to get the letters in the right order).

Sir Ralph, as far as I'm concerned it's your call how much gold to give them (as long as it's in the 8-10 range).

	16-02-2003 04:41									#51
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Did the warriors see anything interesting when you moved them?

	16-02-2003 04:42									#52
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I would say the 8 they asked for would suffice.

Wouldnt want them to ask for more next time because we can so obviously afford it.

	16-02-2003 04:48									#53
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I am thrifty, so if they asked for 8 and it's justified, we should give them 8. However, they provided us for free with a very valuable asset, which we wouldn't have got yet without them: contacts. This justifies a bit freeloading our research, and is much more worth than the miserable 2 gold of difference. So I'm fine with 10 too.

	16-02-2003 04:50									#54
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Did the warriors see anything interesting when you moved them?

Whales at the tile a knight's move from the new location of both. But that's nothing new, the fin of the whale was already visible before.

	16-02-2003 04:57									#55
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Sir Ralph, if you can't decide, let's just go ahead and make it eight. There's a tiny sliver of a chance it might make a difference in terms of when we get Republic.

	16-02-2003 04:58									#56
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No response?

I'll give them 8. They are fat enough.

Turn and screenshots will be sent shortly.

	16-02-2003 05:06									#57
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Crosspost, but I see we both suggested the same.

Turn and screenshots sent.

	16-02-2003 05:24									#58
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First impression on the Score Graph:
- GoW currently has 4 cities, last one build a couple of turns ago.
- RP currently has 4 or 5 cities, precise calculation need a bit of graphic manipulation. In any case, their last city was also built a couple of turns ago.
- Vox probably has built it's 4th city too, if it didn't create a lot of territory (so very close to the capital). Otherwise, the temple in their capital and the size are what's increasing their scores, and they still have 3 settlers, most likely the next one being scheduled in the capital

Power:
- GoW is surprisingly powerless, I would think that either they had built some swords, or they had the money saved to upgrade warriors. It doesn't look that way... I would be very interested in a comparison with Lux or ND
- RPG is very powerfull, I'm a bit surprised. Even if they have already built their 5th city (their capital has food bonuses, we already know that), I think they are going for a fairly wide city spacing. Also, let's not forget that they're expansionists, they could have a big gold reserve from sold techs, and hut gold.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 05:35									#59
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The whale is nice, but in order to use it we're going to need to shift our city placement plan a little: one of the desert cities needs to move closer. Best one would be the Southern one (#8 in previous plans), it will lose two plains to work, but these would go to BolderBerg. Otherwise we create a void on our Western Coast, where we lose tiles.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 05:42									#60
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We actually gain two total tiles with that move since everything #8 loses would still be available to Bolderberg, although I don't know whether it will make any difference until hospitals. I definitely favor the change.