17-02-2003 19:40									#31
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When we chop that fur forest, a settler and two workers are the same price. And we'll need to chop it if we want EotS churning out two-turn workers with minimal disruption to Hurricane's wonder project.

	17-02-2003 19:52									#32
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Also true. Maybe it can be incorporated in keeping EotS at decent size, otherwise we might need to use Cyclone for workers for a while (which is kind of a waste)...

Anyway, we need to test this, but IMHO it gives a good chance of keeping up military...

DeepO

	17-02-2003 20:04									#33
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I'd say better than just good. The #4 site will have two grassland with shield tiles available, but getting the city grown and the tiles improved involved a major delay when I ran the test scenario. The advantage isn't just one of getting the city's size up faster; it's also one of getting tiles improved faster. (The bonus grasslands, plus the fact that Bolderberg will already be well on its way to size 3, are why I think the #4 site is the better one to pump up.)

	17-02-2003 20:16									#34
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Well, you may be right... but I need to test it myself once before I can fully comment.

More workers is never a bad thing, BTW, I already thought we were running short now. Not all our cities are connected, a few of them are using tiles that aren't improved, this is somewhat wasteful. We could do better, without focusing so much on the number of cities we produce, but more on quality as well... and part of that quality is how many troops you have to defend it.

DeepO

	17-02-2003 20:52									#35
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Thinking about it some more, we could actually add one worker each to #4 and Bolderberg and not upset our long-term balance of workers per city compared with if we built another settler in EotS before having it start prioritizing workers. I'm not sure exactly which worker would end up going to Bolderberg, and he'd probably need to work some on tile improvements before joining the city, but it can be done.

	17-02-2003 21:17									#36
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That was what I had in mind, Nathan... we've got 2 workers to share, and two barrack cities to pump. Maybe it's best to put both in one city, but without aquaducts, it's probably best to divide the income.

If we somehow manage to exchange settler #3 from EotS into 2 more workers, we could further divide it, one for #4 (or whatever barrack city needs one atm), one for Hurricane...

DeepO

	17-02-2003 21:48									#37
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Adding more than one worker to Bolderberg or #4 gets us in a situation where the cities are at their growth limits long before we'll probably be ready to build aqueducts there. And in any case, skipping a settler, even with two of the resulting workers ultimately added to cities, should get us in good enough shape in terms of tile improvements that we won't need to avoid building the other settler to keep up.

Also, I'm concerned that if we sacrifice too much REXing to complete the Pyramids quickly (assuming that's our primary target now), we'll lose a good bit of the advantage of of our GA. One of our goals for our GA needs to be to get courthouses in our outlying cities so they can have something resembling decent production, and the more time they have to grow before our GA, the more they can build during the GA.

Nathan

	17-02-2003 22:22									#38
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Nathan, if we get into a GA, the amount of population matters, and not the amount of cities. If existing cities have in total 2 more population (and thus tiles it can use), it's better than having one extra city with 1 pop. The difference is purely in corruption / waste, and this equation only hold for a limited time as 2 cities with normal food can grow 2 pops in 10 turns, where as one bigger city with normal food can only grow 1 pop.

So sacrificing expansion shouldn't be a problem as long as we're not losing total population in cities... certainly not as we're not counting on new cities to let the amount of settlers being build explode. Of course, we need to make sure we keep the ability to expand at a reasonable pace, but with only Cyclone on the job, we will grow faster then any other civ...

DeepO

	17-02-2003 22:23									#39
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Oh, BTW, you're right about the aquaduct limits, that's why we need testing.

DeepO

	17-02-2003 22:29									#40
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The catch is that cities that don't exist can't build courthouses, and smaller cities can't build them as quickly. I suppose at a corruption level higher than 75%, building units in the core to disband in corrupt cities would be a faster way to get courthouses, but I think such areas are the exception rather than the rule. It's not just total empire-wide production that counts; it's also having the production where it's needed.

	17-02-2003 23:24									#41
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Nathan, another idea to throw in the open: what if we use the chop, plus some pop-rushing to get a library in EotS instead of a settler? By that time, we should more or less have access to literature, or we should be able to time it that we do the last poprushing after we got literature from RP. No problems with too many settlers, no problems with too few culture, and a library in our second highest commerce city... only disadvantage is that palace jumps are getting harder to swallow (but if we build a wonder, these might become to risky anyway)

DeepO

	17-02-2003 23:57									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Nathan, if we get into a GA, the amount of population matters, and not the amount of cities. If existing cities have in total 2 more population (and thus tiles it can use), it's better than having one extra city with 1 pop.

I thought that GA bonuses also apply for city squares. In that case, we'd have the same amount of worked tiles for both examples (2 more population vs. one more city with 1 pop).

	18-02-2003 00:05									#43
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Shiber, that was what I meant (didn't voice it very clearly, sorry about that): 2 workers and 1 city should have the same benefits from a GA, but as any next city is likely to be corrupted, the benefits will be smaller in a second city, as opposed to a core city.

DeepO

	18-02-2003 01:33									#44
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Oh, I see now what you meant. I should have read your post more carefully.

	18-02-2003 01:42									#45
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I wish I decided earlier, I would have gone w/ no worker, but it looks like it's over now.

	18-02-2003 01:53									#46
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It would have been 4-4, with you voting for a spear first, and Nathan changing his vote... would have been more difficult

Workers: I've read before you don't particularly like workers (IIRC), but I can't really see why. Care to explain it?

My rule of thumb is generally: if you have unimproved tiles you're working on, you need more workers asap. Plus, on top of that, you most of the time need workers for special projects, like building roads between cities, building fortifications, foresting, etc. Atm, we are using 2 unimproved tiles in our game, and if we settle another city in a few turns, we will be farther behind. More workers are worth their investment IMHO.

DeepO

	18-02-2003 02:04									#47
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whops, I meant no spear not "no worker" sorry

	18-02-2003 02:17									#48
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In that case, don't worry, Nathan switched votes... the 'no spear option' won

DeepO

	18-02-2003 02:19									#49
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I'm always confused as to which option wins in these polls...

So, we're not building a Spearmen, and going straigtht for a prebuild, or something else?


Dominae

	18-02-2003 03:34									#50
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I think i didn't vote in this poll - my vote, as i said, is "no" to spear- i see this as a calculated risk, as Dominae said, and for the Pyramids- the earlier the better. I won't have a big problem with another one spearman delay, but nothing like building some more like Nathan first said, or building our offensive force now (of WC's and spearmen) like Aeson suggests.

btw- why did this poll closed so early, i thought i had a solid opinion, but didn't want to vote in case someone comes with something that convinces me, and now i can't vote. Polls like this should be held in advance, and for now less than 2 days, so that people can really make up their minds.

	18-02-2003 04:35									#51
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The reason the poll was so short was that I wasn't watching the effect of Hurricane's growth closely enough. If we wanted to build any units before Hurricane was essentially committed to a wonder, we had to do it before I played the turn this morning.

In practical terms, the deadline for voting was when I finished playing the turn. If someone had wanted to post a "Hey, I wanted to vote such-and-such but the poll was already closed" message, or if someone wanted to change their vote, they could have. Indeed, I ended up switching my own vote after DeepO came up with an alternative plan to get more troops. But now that the turn has been played, we're pretty much committed. We'd have to throw away six shields to switch to a spearman at this point.

Nathan

	18-02-2003 08:02									#52
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OK, Thanks I missed that.

Talk about jumping in on the winning side

Edit: I do understand the time restraints, and wasn't trying to imply there should have been more times

My reasoning is (generally, to not rant) that there are many ways to get more military units as needed, but if we are to get a wonder we need to start ASAP.

Last edited by Randolph on 18-02-2003 at 08:08

	18-02-2003 15:10									#53
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Randolph, I agree with that last sentence... units we can get in many ways, wonders not. However, I wasn't that sure of it before thinking of the 'add worker to city' tactic... if you have any other ideas how to get more units, please let us know, one crazy idea might give someone else a good plan, and get us going.

DeepO

	18-02-2003 16:18									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO It would have been 4-4, with you voting for a spear first, and Nathan changing his vote... would have been more difficult

Unless I changed my vote too, from a wonder to a spearman.

	18-02-2003 16:32									#55
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We've opened Pandora's box!