20-02-2003 22:25									#31
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quote: You really use horsemen heavily?

Yes, actually, I do. I used to use pure horseman rushes (nothing but horsemen: 25-30 of them). Now I mix my forces a bit more. But I remain a big fan of mounted units. Remember: horsemen aren't just 2.1.2 units. They are 2.1.2 units that upgrade to 4.3.2. units and 6.3.3. units! Sometimes better ones if you're playing say... China or Japan (big favorites of mine).

Taking on Carthage (or Greece) as Rome: I went in with a roughly 1:1 ratio of horse and legion. Roughly 15 each, I think. I think those were divided into to groups. The horsemen went in first. The hope was they would knock 1hp off a regular Num. Merc and then run away. To my surprise and wonder, that's what happened in most cases. It was great. Then I threw the legionaries at the hurt Mercs, and typically won (4hp legionaries vs. 2hp Mercs... advantage: legonaries).

I don't look at specific cities and decide what I need to take them. I build the biggest force I can muster and keep it concentrated in 1-2 groups. I take a city, put my troops in it and wait until they are healed (1-2 turns). Meanwhile, resistance should be quelled. I will either rush a spearman or bring one from home to garrison the city, and then my attack force will move to the next target. Concentrate your forces. The AI doesn't, and thus cannot properly counter a human invasion. Every non-capitol AI city will have the same garrison (on Regent, it's probably 1 spear/1 acher or 2 spear/1 archer. Outliers have less, "core" cities may have more. The capitol probably has 3-4 spears and an archer).

How to properly engage the enemy. First, assemble your forces on the border. Position them such that the horsemen can attack the city directly if possible (1 move, then attack). If you can't, so be it. Declare war and march in. Keep your horsemen and legionaries together at first. Keep to good defensive terrain if possible (forest, jungle, hills, mountains). If this is early in the war and you therefore have a goodly number of horsemen, you may wish to launch your attack with them then next turn (still out of range for the legionaries). If you have the numbers, you will take the city w/o legionary assistance. I will do this if I am march up an enemy road (with legionaries as cover, I'm not as worried about good defensive terrain for my guys... 3 defense is hardcore). You don't get the road bonus while it's in enemy territory, but if you horsemen take the city, it's now in YOUR territory, or in neutral territory, and your legionaries get the road bonus, allowing them to move in and protect the newly conquered city.

Otherwise, I must march my stack of troops up next to the AI city, making sure my attack will not have to cross a river (+25% defense). Again, horsies first, legions to finish wounded enemies.

-Arrian

	20-02-2003 22:33									#32
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So, 15 horsemen and 15 legions. How many enemy cities are we talking about here?

	20-02-2003 23:05									#33
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As Dave said you need to have a barracks in order to upgrade a unit that you other wise have the tech and resources for building.
I cranked up a game to your specs (btw I am unhappy with you for choosing huge) and ran into two big problems 1- no iron 2- no lux.
So if you have unhappiness, you want to hook up as many luxs as you can and have marketplaces in the bigger cities. In my case that could not be done for the longest time, so I was forced to use entertainers (or slider). For a long time, I was able to avoid it by cranking out settlers and workers to hold the pop down.
You will have to keep an eye on cities that are size 5, as when they go to 6, you will have unrest, if you do not have luxs, even with a temple. Once you get other happiness structures, then you can avoid it (coll/cath).
I am sorry I did not understand prob #2.
Issue three is really a matter of experience. You will learn to judge the timing and likelyhood of attacks.
I would have been moving horses forward all along to the borders that are the primary targets. Built barracks there and hopefully forstalled attacks, certainly by weak sisters. I can not make the UU, since no iron, but if I could I would not use them in the defense if I did not want the GA. I would expect to have made it to Republic and maybe the next age before a war was triggered by someone else in a huge map. This would not be the case if I was on a small land mass, usually there is so much open land, no one start a ruckus early.
If I have switch to republic, I am fine with a GA here as I will be able to crank out units and smash the bad guy.

	20-02-2003 23:07									#34
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Wow by the time I got my post done, a bunch of responses had come in.

	20-02-2003 23:38									#35
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Re: how big was Carthage when I attacked...

Not very. For some reason (perhaps they lost a settler team to barbs or something) they got off to a poor start, despite having a pretty nice capitol location. 8 cities, maybe 10. I took most of them. I left them with 1-2 cities, and mopped them up later.

Like I said earlier, however, it is my opinion that I got good combat luck during that campaign. It could easily have been much bloodier than it was.

However, the main thing with me using horsemen & swordsmen is that I typically have time to do serious damage with those guys in the ancient era. On a huge map, the distances involved may mean you can only really beat on one AI civ before the world enters the Medieval Age.

We need an experienced huge map player (Aeson, perhaps?) to chime in for reference.

-Arrian

	20-02-2003 23:42									#36
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vmxa1, why are you "unhappy" to find me playing on a huge world?

The larger, the better! The real world is huge, after all... and I just spent eight years playing on a large world (CivII). I need something to do for the next eight!

Seriously, though, can someone tell me the exact effect a marketplace has on a city linked to 1 or more luxury resources? Assume that the luxury slider is still set to 0% (i.e., all my wealth goes to taxes and science).

Arrian, I would love it if you would play a huge world for me as the Romans, just once. Your advice is stellar, but I do wonder if it holds water on a huge world. After all, this morning I conquered Carthage and destroyed Leptis Minor, but I was left with a huge Greece to contend with.

I will go home tonight, or tomorrow morning, and begin to incorporate some of strategies everyone has posted here, of course. Keep it coming, folks.

	21-02-2003 00:07									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Seriously, though, can someone tell me the exact effect a marketplace has on a city linked to 1 or more luxury resources? Assume that the luxury slider is still set to 0% (i.e., all my wealth goes to taxes and science).

Marketplaces act as multipliers for luxuries once you have access to three diferent types. Assuming control (through actual control or trade) of 8 luxuries, a city without a mrketplace enjoys 8 happy-faces because of those luxuries. The same city with a marektplace enjoys 20 happy faces. The progression is as follows:

Luxury 1:
Luxury 2:
Luxury 3:
Luxury 4:
Luxury 5:
Luxury 6:
Luxury 7:
Luxury 8:

You can see this in the "luxury window" of any city's city view (the luxury window being in the bottom left-ish of the city view screen).

Catt

	21-02-2003 00:14									#38
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Hey, wow, I can't believe that! I guess I just never noticed! So marketplaces can act without the luxury slider but with luxury resources to increase happiness! Well, bring on the marketplaces I guess!

Can anyone verify Catt's math? Not that I don't trust you, Catt, I just want to double-check.

	21-02-2003 00:19									#39
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Yes, Catt is correct. Luxuries are incredibly powerful when teamed with marketplaces.

quote: Your advice is stellar, but I do wonder if it holds water on a huge world

So do I, but not enough to play a huge world game It would take too long. I like the pace of standard map games. I like the balance of standard map games (8 civ, 8 luxuries). Huge maps are too much for me, sorry.

-Arrian

	21-02-2003 00:24									#40
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Ah well, I shall try your horseman/legion combination strategy sometime soon and report back.

Any other thoughts from everyone?

	21-02-2003 01:35									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth vmxa1, why are you "unhappy" to find me playing on a huge world?

I am not unhappy to find you playing on huge, only that I had to run a game to match your settings and I hate those huge maps. I had to fired up a huge map as I had not played one in so long, that I needed to get a refresher. I am a nut that must finish whatever I start and I was not sure the victory conditions so I went with mine (Dom/Conq only). No short cuts for space or UN.

	21-02-2003 01:42									#42
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Good lord man... I wouldn't even dream of attempting and conquest or domination victory on a huge map. I generally win a cultural victory, or if push comes to shove, the space race.

Hey, who knows? Maybe the Romans will be my first domination victory. Help me make the dream come alive people!!!

	21-02-2003 20:58									#43
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Saved Games

Alright, some one asked for this (Arrian I think), so here you go... hope this isn't overkill...

These saved games are all on the same settings: Regent level, max. # of civs, huge map, roaming barbarians, 4 billion yrs, temperate, continents. Cultural linking on. All victory conditions allowed.

As I'm not quite sure how to upload multiple files to this site, I'm going to chop this up into many small messages instead of one large one. Sorry for the inconvience!

	21-02-2003 21:19									#44
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Contemptible Rome.SAV

Thrilled with discovering Egypt with my veteran archer early in the game, I spent most of the game building archers or settlers and wiping out Egypt. I did so, but at the cost of severe unhappiness throughout my empire, presumably caused by the duration of war and the many sneak attacks I launched as well. The Roman economy is poor and the empire is slightly behind in terms of tech. I wasted 2 elite and 6 veteran archers on an attack on a German city surrounded by incense (Hamburg, I think). The Germans block me to the North, but the real threat are the Celts, with whom I'm at war currently.

Attachment: contemptible rome.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	21-02-2003 21:21									#45
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Glorious Rome

This is a game I haven't played in months. I launched a bloody war against the Persians and Arabs that left me with a large empire with many luxury resources, but behind everyone in tech. To my south are powerful Zulu, Ottoman and Babylonian states. I am at war with the Babylonians. I control 4 luxury resources, but they aren't even connected to my capital. My infrastructure is pathetic. I don't think I yet used my legionaries, however, so I might still have a GA in the wings.

Attachment: glorious rome.sav
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	21-02-2003 21:23									#46
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Glory of Rome Maybe.SAV

Small empire, boxed in by the Mongols and Carthage. Warred with Carthage; we each lost a city. 2 luxuries. This is still early in the game, and might have potential.

Attachment: glory of rome maybe.sav
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	21-02-2003 21:25									#47
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Glory of Rome Sort Of.SAV

This game has potential. I blew the GA already attacking Egypt, but unlike an earlier game where I wasted the bulk of my legionaries destroying an Egyptian army and taking only 2 of their cities, this time, I took most of Egypt. In this save, I'm at a second, miniature war with them, and ahead of the rest in tech. I'm waiting to switch to Monarchy. I have several luxuries.

The only reason I stopped playing this game was because I blew the GA building legionaries...

Attachment: glory of rome sort of.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	21-02-2003 21:30									#48
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Expanding Rome.SAV

This is my "lucky" game, the one I will probably play through to the end. I knocked Egypt down early, and somehow, Greece never really did much expansion. Normally, no matter who I play as, the Greeks are everywhere very early. This time, they pretty much stayed in one corner. And notice the HUGE DESERT that seperates me from the Carthaginians and Mongols. I have 3 luxury resources, plenty of iron, and I haven't used my GA yet. Furthermore, I'm a good contender to get the GL and HG built before anyone, and my tech and money are moving in at a good clip. My closest competitor seems to be France overseas, who I haven't met but who are building the Great Wall.

I have not built a single legionary and I still have my GA to come. Horray!

Attachment: expanding rome.sav
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	21-02-2003 21:33									#49
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So, hope that wasn't too much! Those of you who have the time, please, give me some advice. If you don't want to look at them all, skip Expanding Rome... I'm pretty much garunteed victory of some sort there. Also, Glory of Rome Sort Of, I think I could handle. But the others are good case studies for how to "make it" as Rome, or perhaps, to examine the mistakes I already made and how they might have blown the game.

Ok, enjoy!

	22-02-2003 00:10									#50
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Ok, for what it is worth. I took a peek at the one called Contemptable Rome at 420AD.
I will say right off that I only looked at 5 or 6 cities.
1- why go for monarchy? You are a non religous civ and switching will be painful. I would prefer to make sort of a beeline for Republic and never switch again. You will now have to switch (at some point) or suffer under Monarchy.
2- I would not be researching Chivarly here, I would go for Invention and GunPowder. You will have access to build Leos and Guns are better than sword. Not to mention you have the GL, so you will soon be getting Chiv for free.
3- Now this is my perspective, but I am not seeing the point of making Mech Inf over Legions at this point.
I prefer the 3/3 over 4/2. In fact I would not being making either here as I would prefer to have Pikes and Horses. They have better upgrades and sooner. MI are not much and are stuck until Guerillas and that is too late to care about IMO.
In fact I would be inclined to not make more units, except maybe one city making Horses.
Them as they have the movement to cover cities and you will soon have Knights thanks to the GL.
4- No luxs, the nearest is in German hands, so I would be plotting my conquest.
5- workers that I looked at were not being used well.
In Rome, one was making a road that was on a useless tile that went nowhere. At the same time Rome had tiles with no road that were being worked by citizens.
6- Veli was making a MI and it had no barracks. This is unacceptable at this point in the game and you are not under any pressure. NO combat units with out a barracks after warriors, unless an extreme condition.
I would switch to a Coll as the city is large and growing and you have no lux. Worker minning a tile that was not being worked, while a worked tile was unroaded, for shame.
7-Ravenna It had two workers each on a tile minning and no citizen to work them. The city has jungles all around it and forrest. Either put both on one tile to make the mine or set them to clearing some tiles.
Oh the pain of not being industrious.
You have plenty of troops to handle defense and that is all you need right now as the Celts are not next door.
If you go for Germany, then that different. I would get more of those troops in the rear to the front to be ready for the Celts when they show up and they will. Upgrade more spears to pikes, a big diffrence. You would be so much better off if your troops were vets.
Here is where the value of Horses comes in as you woud be able to get them out to harrass incoming units and cover cities that become sieged. And as I say they will be Knights in awhile.
All in all you can win from here with no real problem, but must get those luxs. I did not see much unhappiness, so they could be putting you into We Love xxx from time to time. The real crunch will come from growing larger. You will have to use citizens as entertainers with luxs.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 22-02-2003 at 00:17

	22-02-2003 00:25									#51
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Expanding Rome - I loaded it, but come on this is a walk over. You have double the score of the next civ.
I did not look at anything else, but could not help notice that you are making temples in some new towns and one has two lux. I would suggest making a worker first and then the temple. Now you can hook up the lux and mine and road the worked tile, which ever one that turns out to be.

	22-02-2003 00:34									#52
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Replies to vmxa1:

"Contemptible Rome": how would you deal with my tech deficit?

"Expanding Rome": Yeah, this is a cakewalk. Like I said, I got very lucky. Nonetheless, why not build temples? Should I build libraries instead, to promote culture?

Anyone have any thoughts on this matter, in general?

	22-02-2003 00:36									#53
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Glory of Rome Sort of-
I did not do much looking at this either as you lead is quite large (score), so you should be good to go.
Some of my points in the first game probably apply, especially the research. You have luxs and that is a big help.
I presume the Greeks are not coming for you, but are traipsing across to get to the French or someone.
In any event you have no horsemen and that makes it harder to cover incursions. The other thing is that Legions (swords of any flavor really) do not upgrade well, so I do not want to make massive numbers of them on larger maps. The slow movement and lack upgrades is a real handicap. Horsemen are more useful and versatile.

	22-02-2003 00:42									#54
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Well, believe you me, I regret using those legionaries, although I did use them to good effect. I could have used double the number of horsemen as the number of legionaries I used, and I would have had the same conquest without a wasted GA.

As for the Greeks - I'm not worried about them conquering me, I'm a little concerned about having to wait forever (read: a long time) to conquer them.

	22-02-2003 01:52									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Replies to vmxa1: "Expanding Rome": Yeah, this is a cakewalk. Like I said, I got very lucky. Nonetheless, why not build temples? Should I build libraries instead, to promote culture?

I do not mean to not build temples in that city, only that a worker and then a temple could be a better choice. The worker can hook up those luxs and do some minning.
One method I use to allow me to make teh temple right off, is to have a worker already heading for the new town, but if I do not have any to spare, then oftenmy first build is a worker. This may not be wise if you have industrial traits, but Romans take forever to get a task donw and need a lot of workers.

	22-02-2003 01:57									#56
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I wholeheartedly concur: first thing I've been building in most of my new cities (the ones on the West coast and in the desert) are workers. Still, the deserty ones have workers headed to them.

Yeah, the non-industriousness is a hassle, even more so under the Romans than under other civs I could name.

	22-02-2003 01:58									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Replies to vmxa1: "Contemptible Rome": how would you deal with my tech deficit? "

I do not have the game up right this minute, but tech deficts are not a huge problem. If you have the GL you will not be far behind, if you do not and are 2-3 techs back, you can over take them soon.
If you were in republic form you would likely not be behind, as Monarch is not so kind.
Anyway you have a few options in general
1- increase research via spending and pop growth (more cities and libs, etc)
2- aquire from conquest
3- trade for them
I would be using 1 and 3 mainly. I did not intend to try to cover all possible options, just the main ones.
Form of Gov and optimal use of citizens and workers are going to do a lot to increase research.

	22-02-2003 01:59									#58
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Pretty much every new city I build pumps out a worker relatively soon (at the very beginning, it's warrior, worker. Later, further out when the city may only produce 1 shield for a bit, it may produce a few workers at 10 turns per). Just judging by vmxa1's comments, it would appear that you have a shortage of workers. Citizens should almost never have to work undeveloped tiles.

-Arrian

	22-02-2003 02:01									#59
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I think the main crippling effect is lack of libraries, marketplaces, and roads due to excessive military output during the ancient era.

	22-02-2003 02:05									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth As for the Greeks - I'm not worried about them conquering me, I'm a little concerned about having to wait forever (read: a long time) to conquer them.

No you can not be conquered IMO at this point unless all civs went to all war against you and I doubt thatthey would wage it effectively enough even them, but it would be a handful.
I just say all those units in your land and did a double take. My point about get the extra units to the front is in case they get ugly on you and the Celts will be coming.
Understand that it is possible that the greeks could join the Celts and jump you. I sometimes will try to get others to join in on my enemies, not to help me so much, but to ensure that they do not join in against me.
Anyway i do not see any real reason why you could not win any of these games if you want to play them out.
I would suggest that avoiding going to Monarch is a better move in new games on larger map. You will not be at war all that soon and probably not all that long, so the benefits are small and the cost are high for Monarch. Like I said that switching Govs is just a bad idea for non Religous civs. Rep can go the whole game and really Monarch can not on a huge map. (yeah it could but it would hurt, unless you plan on warring all the time)