21-02-2003 01:04									#61
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Well you don't look like you honour that debt either

	21-02-2003 01:14									#62
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What are you on about?

-Arrian

	21-02-2003 02:12									#63
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Just to point out that Chirac and his prime minister are both short-tempered and heavy-footed fellows who tend no tot like much opposition. That means they are not very good diplomats.
Now, that France would be trying to impose its yoke on Europe through the EU, well, every other country in the union does, too. However, the point is to be stronger as an economic union than as separate states. Political union is very very unlikely anyway.

	21-02-2003 02:49									#64
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paiktis, France didn't want to help us, they wanted to hurt the Brits, so they got what they wanted out of the American revolutution too. Besides, any debt we owed them we payed back in spades in WW1, where more Americans lost their lives than the French ever committed in our revolution...and that was just WW1.

	21-02-2003 02:54									#65
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond The East Europeans should have shown more tact towards their prospective donors within the EU. So Chirac is right in this: they missed a great opportunity to shut up. Once again they have shown themselves as petty lackeys: no principles, just blind asskissing to the master.

So I take it your problem is that they picked the wrong master

This seems to be the typical French viewpoint. How distressing for the EU. It really could have been a good idea if only France were on another continent.

	21-02-2003 03:02									#66
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What if the rest of europe ditched the EU and made a new union without France? I have to think the Germans are going to wake up one day in a cold sweat and start acting rational again...but then again, who wants the Germans either?

The problem with any union of nations in europe is that it must, by necesity, be formed from european nations...

	21-02-2003 03:09									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer What if the rest of europe ditched the EU and made a new union without France? I have to think the Germans are going to wake up one day in a cold sweat and start acting rational again...but then again, who wants the Germans either? The problem with any union of nations in europe is that it must, by necesity, be formed from european nations...

Agree completely!!

	21-02-2003 03:24									#69
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quote: Give me the option, id prefer to join a union with Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand and get out of the EU.

Now that would be cool

	21-02-2003 05:37									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Wouldn't it be ironic if Eastern Europe — in a pique over Chirac's comments — began to gravitate towards, say, Moscow? Gatekeeper

The Perestroika Deception.

	21-02-2003 12:32									#71
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What I find amusing about Chirac's comments is that it comes across as, "If you want to be a part of the European Union, shut your mouths. And if you're a part of the EU now, shut your mouths anyway and follow our lead."

I don't think that's particularly good for even "just" an economic union, let alone a possible political and military one down the road.

BTW, I'm waiting for Dubya to smack Vincente Fox around a little bit in the near future ...

Gatekeeper

	21-02-2003 12:41									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper And if you're a part of the EU now, shut your mouths anyway and follow our lead."

That's strange I must have missed that.

Better talk to the Brits about that, they seem to have the same illusions

	21-02-2003 12:46									#73
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Well, you'd think that everything was hunky-dory w/i the EU, they wouldn't have had such an *unbecoming* public spat (I prefer fistfight, just for "color" purposes ... ah, the written word) in regards to U.S. and British policies towards Iraq.

But I understand that there are some internal issues driving this as well.

Gatekeeper

	21-02-2003 12:56									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper What I find amusing about Chirac's comments is that it comes across as, "If you want to be a part of the European Union, shut your mouths. And if you're a part of the EU now, shut your mouths anyway and follow our lead."

Oh, come on! East Europeans issued their statement without even informing France beforehand as a courtesy. Do you really think this should be a normal practice within the EU? Chirac had all the reasons to be frustrated.

	21-02-2003 13:21									#75
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quote: BRUSSELS, Belgium - Future European Union (news - web sites) members endorsed a hard-won EU declaration Tuesday warning Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) he has one last chance to disarm, grasping for unity despite signs of a new continental rift.

In other words, his last last chance really wasn't his last chance and now we are going to give him a last last last chance and we really want him to comply because we're not going to give him a last last last last chance.

Why should Saddam believe it when you say "this is the last chance" since you've all been saying that for 12 years now? If he didn't comply when the U.N. gave him his "last chance" seven months ago then why would he comply when EU gives him a new last chance ("For real! We mean it this time... well, we think we do but we're not sure...")?

	21-02-2003 13:56									#76
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Let's have a third vote for a stronger commonwealth.



Wonder what the Aussies and Kiwis have to say, though.

	21-02-2003 13:56									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I reckon these countries are just brown-nosing the US in the hopes of some bread crumbs. Poor sods.

Poor sod yourself. You obviously have no clue about EU and EU accesion politics.

	21-02-2003 14:10									#78
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond The East Europeans should have shown more tact towards their prospective donors within the EU. So Chirac is right in this: they missed a great opportunity to shut up. Once again they have shown themselves as petty lackeys: no principles, just blind asskissing to the master.

France is not a donor. France is a net recipient. And go kiss your own, buddy.

	21-02-2003 14:14									#79
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Oh, come on! East Europeans issued their statement without even informing France beforehand as a courtesy. Do you really think this should be a normal practice within the EU? Chirac had all the reasons to be frustrated.

Would France consult anyone else before issuing a statement.

They are NOT in charge

	21-02-2003 14:19									#80
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Interesting thread. Please continue.

	21-02-2003 14:46									#81
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LOL...
you issued the letter without consulting anyone and you have the nerrve to speak?

I mean the whole Europe knows that the UK is the US ***** but really, you outdone yourselves.

	21-02-2003 14:54									#82
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I don't think you should have to consult anyone, my point was to highlight the hypocrisy of the French.

And as we don't actually care what the rest of europe think about us it don't matter

	21-02-2003 14:58									#83
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_I don't think you should have to consult anyone, my point was to highlight the hypocrisy of the French.

you do actually.
there are formal procedures for that.
you dont get slaped in the wrist if you dont follow them but you dont help the EU go forth if you dont.

its just hypocritical to accuse anyone else of what you have done.


about your second point, thats good cause Europe pretty much thinks your the US *****

	21-02-2003 15:04									#84
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As the EU does not have a common defense and foreign policy and member states are still sovreighn. Wy should they have to consult before releasing a statement regarding those areas.

	21-02-2003 15:13									#85
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger As the EU does not have a common defense and foreign policy and member states are still sovreighn. Wy should they have to consult before releasing a statement regarding those areas.

might help if you actually knew something about the EU.

common foreign policy is the 2nd pillar which is not "enforced" like the 1st pillar (economic).

procedures exist though as do protocols whoever's ***** the UK decides to be next.

you might be as kind as to inform us before, especially since this is required, although not enforced.

	21-02-2003 15:19									#86
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The point is the UK is a soverign country with its right to set its own foreign and defence policy. There is nothing within the EU set up that compells it to demure to Brusels.

It is a diplomatic courtesy to inform your allies(well sort of ) of major statements. Since however everyone at the moment is engaged in a pissing contest, its a bit rich of the French to suddenly take the high moral ground regarding making statements

	21-02-2003 15:21									#87
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you're not enforced but you're kindly requered to inform everyone. as all of us do.

not that hard to take a higher moral stance than the UK BTW. easily.

point is its funny to accuse someone of something you've done first (and was detrimental to the unity of the EU - which you dont care about, I know, you told me)

	21-02-2003 15:27									#88
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Oh for ****s sake.

I said that it was hypocritcal of the French to criticse the Rummanians for something they would do themselves.

I did not mention the UK

	21-02-2003 15:29									#89
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come again?


you just blasted the french for something you did in the first place and twice, mind you.

you also send a letter to the dissidents and not to the others just as the EU summit was about to take place. you did everything in your power to make the summit fail.

glad to see you were persuaded to sign on it too.

not that it means anything, knowing you.

	21-02-2003 15:32									#90
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No I blasted the French for comming out and lecturing other countries on how to behave.

That is all I was saying. I know the UK ignore EU rules on foreign stuff as do the French.

They should not though criticise others for doing so.