21-02-2003 01:26									#31
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Like communism?

	21-02-2003 01:27									#32
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Che, forgiving != forgetting.

Let me post the full account later tonight when I get home. It might affect people's decisions.

As for my own...

I probably would have forgiven him, for two reasons. The first is the one MtG mentions, that of a dying man looking for a small easing of his pain before he goes. If he's really repentant, then I have done a little bit to help someone who is living with crushing guilt, deserved as it may be. If he isn't, my act isn't going to change his outcome anyway. If there is no afterlife, it dies with him, and if there is, he'll answer for it to a higher power.

My other reason is my hope in humanity. Whatever urge we might have to label Hitler and the murderers he cultivated monsters, they are not so. They are, like it or not, human beings. And we, as human beings, all have the potential to do the wrong things, to follow the wrong paths. If this SS man who participated in such a cruel and terrible deed can truly feel repentance for his act and accept his responsibility, and recognize the evil thing he has done and be remorseful for it, then there is hope that I can be redeemed of the wrongdoings in my own life, that should I fall from grace I can still make an effort, in whatever capacity, to acknowledge my wrongs.

Now, that's a big if. It's entirely possible the man's repentance was out of fear of death rather than genuine remorse for what he had done. A last-ditch effort at salvation, perhaps. But since I wouldn't have the power to know for sure, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, utter a terse "I forgive you," and then leave.

Last edited by Boris Godunov on 21-02-2003 at 01:36

	21-02-2003 01:29									#33
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand We Methodists would never to presume what God will or won't forgive.

Us commies know that God doesn't exist.

Here are the things I'm assuming for the scenario. 1) The Holocaust is going on and I'm in a death camp. 2) I'm Jewish. 3) The trip was soon enough after the war for the memories to be fresh in my mind.

It's all well and good to say you should give comfort to a dying boy, but this boy is a monster who massacred people for the crime of being Jewish. No one forced him to join the Hitler Youth or the SS. I feel nothing but contempt for him.

Telling his mother isn't meant to be an act of cruelty. It's so that she knows it really happened. So that everyone knows it really happened. So that no one ever forgets what happened.

	21-02-2003 01:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Che, forgiving != forgetting.

I personally believe that 90 year old men should be hunted down and imprisoned for their roles in the Holocaust. This is a crime beyond forgiveness.

	21-02-2003 01:34									#35
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quote: It's all well and good to say you should give comfort to a dying boy, but this boy is a monster who massacred people for the crime of being Jewish. No one forced him to join the Hitler Youth or the SS. I feel nothing but contempt for him.

It's nice that you think you are so strong willed to ignore the propaganda of the Nazi party in Germany at the time, but saying no one forced him to join the Hitler Youth and the SS shows that for all the talk about propaganda, you have no idea how it really works.

	21-02-2003 01:37									#36
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The tougher thing is what to tell Karl's mom, as far as I'm concerned. One thing to keep in mind is that Karl's mom might have been comforted by her son expressing regret and anguish over what he had done, as that would have given her an indication of where he was going to spend eternity, considering her belief structure.

	21-02-2003 01:41									#37
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quote: I personally believe that 90 year old men should be hunted down and imprisoned for their roles in the Holocaust. This is a crime beyond forgiveness.

Yes, and I believe 90 year old men should be hunted down and imprisioned for their roles in spreading Communism. THAT is a crime beyond forgiveness .

I'll be rounding up Russians tomorrow.

	21-02-2003 01:46									#38
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It would do ME harm to forgive, in the case presented by the initial post. I couldn't do it. Couldn't live with myself.

Sure, it's easy to say the words, and I physically could say a terse, "I forgive you."

But it wouldn't be true.

I wouldn't have an ounce of forgiveness in my body for him and his deeds as a good little nazi.

Maybe he was a good little boy growing up. Maybe he got sucked in by the propaganda.

"I was just following orders" is NOT....is not a valid defense for something like that.

Never will be.

He made the choice.

He lived with it.

He can die with it on his mind.

-=Vel=-

	21-02-2003 01:46									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I personally believe that 90 year old men should be hunted down and imprisoned for their roles in the Holocaust. This is a crime beyond forgiveness.

That would be not forgetting, not not forgiving. Such men are not yet up for forgiveness, since they are running from their crimes rather than facing them. They should be brought to justice.

But I think men who were repentant for their participation are deserving of forgiveness. Albert Speer being a prime example, though he wasn't really involved with the Holocaust itself, AFAIK.

	21-02-2003 02:02									#40
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This is tough. I thought about it for a couple of minutes before posting.

I would probably say he's scum, and then will say that I hope there is a god that can forgive him in the afterlife, because I surely cannot.

The mother is the really hard case.
I'll try to strike a balance somewhere in the middle, trying to both make her know about what he did, and to try to mend her pain, by saying that he repented later. ( Note: to me, this is not important for the historical truth. It is important, in order to sooth the mother's pain ).

	21-02-2003 02:12									#41
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I seem to remember way back in the recesses of my brain some bit of Catholic doctrine which says that in a pinch anybody can hear a confession. Having your face blown off with just hours to live in some remote field hospital sounds like a pinch to me. Asking to speak to somebody Jewish would seem to be the most likely course if one really wanted to make as best amends as one could at this late date.

I think Weisenthal should have veiwed the confession as genuine and tried to forgive Karl (not that I necessarily could have). I also would have told Karl's mother about her son's deathbed repentance as a way to help her be at peace.

A wise priest once told me that forgiveness does not mean that you forget that something ever happened, but rather that you try to get to a point where what has happened is not a stumbling block in future relations with this individual. This requires on the one hand genuine repentance, and a sincere effort to set things right as best one can. It also requires the injured party to absorb as much of the past injury as they can, or else the hatred simply continues. It is for this last reason that Christ called peacemakers "blessed".

	21-02-2003 02:29									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith I seem to remember way back in the recesses of my brain some bit of Catholic doctrine which says that in a pinch anybody can hear a confession. Having your face blown off with just hours to live in some remote field hospital sounds like a pinch to me. Asking to speak to somebody Jewish would seem to be the most likely course if one really wanted to make as best amends as one could at this late date. I think Weisenthal should have veiwed the confession as genuine and tried to forgive Karl (not that I necessarily could have). I also would have told Karl's mother about her son's deathbed repentance as a way to help her be at peace. A wise priest once told me that forgiveness does not mean that you forget that something ever happened, but rather that you try to get to a point where what has happened is not a stumbling block in future relations with this individual. This requires on the one hand genuine repentance, and a sincere effort to set things right as best one can. It also requires the injured party to absorb as much of the past injury as they can, or else the hatred simply continues. It is for this last reason that Christ called peacemakers "blessed".

well said

And even if I'm not capable of forgiving Nazi or SS officers, I believe that God, who is not human and who is a perfect, omnipresence, would be capable of forgiving those officers who are genuinely, sincerely repetant and show great remorse for what they have done.

	21-02-2003 02:29									#43
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I do not know if I would have forgiven. I do know I would not have denounced the man either. I really have no clue, but silence is the easiest way. It might be impossible to forgive, but at the same time, to denounce might bring out things you would like to think were not in you.

As for the Mother, I think telling her about the repentence of the son at the end would be best. In the bakc of her heart somewhere, the creeping knowledge that hert might might very well have done horrid things must exist, and that, added to the memory of her lost husband, who disowned the son for his acts makes for terrible memories. By telling her about the repentence she might very well think that, for all of what his son did, there was somehting left within him, somehting the fahter might also have been able to see.

So, silence at the start, but tell the mother the story.

	21-02-2003 02:45									#44
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Look at it from a selfish viewpoint if you want, assuming a belief in God.
Just forgive him. The token effort gets chalked up on your asset side of the ledger.
Real difficult.

	21-02-2003 02:55									#45
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Look at it from a selfish viewpoint if you want, assuming a belief in God. Just forgive him. The token effort gets chalked up on your asset side of the ledger. Real difficult.

Could you possibly post an opinion without sneering at other people's feelings on the matter?

Maybe, just maybe, if you were existing as a Jewish slave in a Nazi concentration camp, and were subjected to the worst horrors imaginable on a daily basis, you'd possibly feel differently about it being a "real difficult" decision?

Do you think you'd find it so easy to forgive if you knew that, once you left the room, you'd go back to being on death's edge, at the mercy of sadistic SS men who could kill you on a whim?

	21-02-2003 03:06									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Maybe, just maybe, if you were existing as a Jewish slave in a Nazi concentration camp, and were subjected to the worst horrors imaginable on a daily basis, you'd possibly feel differently about it being a "real difficult" decision?

Not "real difficult" NO, then I would have offed him

If I survived a Nazi concentration camp,
I would have offed the mom too,

	21-02-2003 03:09									#47
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quote: He did believe Karl's remorse was genuine, but he also points out it was a deathbed confession.

Boris:
It does not matter to Christ whether the man confesses the moment before he dies, or 50 years in advance. They get the same wage for the same work.

I think the Jewish fellow should have forgiven the Nazi if he believed the Nazi was truly repentant.

quote: One thing to keep in mind is that Karl's mom might have been comforted by her son expressing regret and anguish over what he had done, as that would have given her an indication of where he was going to spend eternity, considering her belief structure.

Well said, DanS

I agree wholeheartedly. The women would see her son's repentance as indicative that he was saved. Remember the story says she was Catholic.

quote: I seem to remember way back in the recesses of my brain some bit of Catholic doctrine which says that in a pinch anybody can hear a confession.

Adam Smith:
You are referring to the doctrine of Extreme Unction. The same is with Catholic baptism, a Jewish doctor can baptise a baby who is about to die.

	21-02-2003 03:22									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Could you possibly post an opinion without sneering at other people's feelings on the matter? Maybe, just maybe, if you were existing as a Jewish slave in a Nazi concentration camp, and were subjected to the worst horrors imaginable on a daily basis, you'd possibly feel differently about it being a "real difficult" decision? Do you think you'd find it so easy to forgive if you knew that, once you left the room, you'd go back to being on death's edge, at the mercy of sadistic SS men who could kill you on a whim?

You are SO much one to talk, Boris.

Did I say it would be easy to forgive? No.
Did I say I was Nazi sympathizer? No.

Had I said blow the SS fuker's head smooth off, you'd have come back at me with argument.

It doesn't matter. All I said was have compassion for one dying man who doesn't mean squat in the machinery of Nazism.
To be better than he was.

Somehow, you twist it so you can jump my ass, yet again.



Peckerhead.

	21-02-2003 03:55									#49
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I'm not gonna salve that monster's conscience. He's done nothing to warrent a belief that his "repentence" is genuine. For all we can tell, he's motivated not be a guine disgust with himself, but by fear of the all-mighty. Maybe if he'd shot an officer or something, I'd be inclined to believe him.

	21-02-2003 04:00									#50
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I think you're too harsh, che. I don't say that I would've forgiven him, but... well, I'd say him what I said previously.

	21-02-2003 04:00									#51
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Did I say it would be easy to forgive? No.

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Just forgive him. The token effort gets chalked up on your asset side of the ledger. Real difficult

quote: Did I say I was Nazi sympathizer? No.

Did I say you were? No.

quote: Somehow, you twist it so you can jump my ass, yet again.

I said nothing criticizing your opinion on the subject at hand, what I objected to was your obnoxious, sanctimonious "my opinion is better than yours" atttitude that you've put in almost every post. "Look at me, I'm more compassionate than anyone!" You've pretty much been the sole twit in this entire thread, which was meant to be about a very serious subject.

quote: Peckerhead.

Rest my case. Now you can stay out of my thread, since you've shown you are incapable of posting anything mature.

	21-02-2003 04:01									#52
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"For all we can tell, he's motivated not be a genuine disgust with himself, but by fear of the all-mighty"


The difference being... ?

	21-02-2003 04:09									#53
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quote: He's done nothing to warrent a belief that his "repentence" is genuine. For all we can tell, he's motivated not be a guine disgust with himself, but by fear of the all-mighty.

Che, isn't that what repentence is all about? Fear of God? Why repent unless you fear the consequences of your previous actions?

	21-02-2003 04:12									#54
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The above statement shows all that is wrong about christian ethics.

	21-02-2003 04:12									#55
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quote: Che, isn't that what repentence is all about? Fear of God? Why repent unless you fear the consequences of your previous actions?

Because you see the harm they have done.

So I don't see this as a flaw in Christian ethics, Azazel.

(Azazel snuck a post in on me.)

	21-02-2003 04:13									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I disagree. I don't believe you are the most compassionate. Your compassion is for a monster who committed a crime against humanity, not for the humanity which this monster helped destroy. I would have told the man, "I will not forgive you, and God will not forgive you either." I would also have told his mother what her son had done. When it comes to the Holocaust, "Never forgive. Never forget."

	21-02-2003 04:14									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The above statement shows all that is wrong about christian ethics.

again...

it's a nice loophole... repent on your deathbed and you're immediately forgiven!

	21-02-2003 04:17									#58
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I wouldn't see it as a loophole, It's actually very consistent with the idea of God. The idea is where the problem lies, IMO.

	21-02-2003 04:21									#59
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too little too late IMO...' burn in hell 4sshole' is what I would have said.

	21-02-2003 04:26									#60
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quote: So I don't see this as a flaw in Christian ethics, Azazel.

I REALLY don't want to sidetrack this thread, but saying that something is wrong because Someone may punish you, is flawed, IMO.

The fact that this Someone is supposedly a friendly happiness spreading dude, is irrelevant, because it doesn't matter, because the reason for obeying this Someone's wishes is fear of him, which surely would remain ( and perhaps would be intensified ) if he was a bloodthirsty evil maniac.