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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:26
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GePap:
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Scientist of the current mode expand the realm of what is possible for man to do, by exploring the workings of the world we live in and its applications. Yet making something possibe is not the same as making it real: scientist made the Nuclear bomb possible, but it was only when other decided it should be built that it was made real. Those other's are not scientist, but people trained in the arts, humanities, social sciences, and all of them making their decisions based on sets of assumptions, codes, and so on formed by philosophers accross the ages.
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Ahh, yes, we are all only loyal peons.
I think you've seen to many bad movies.
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Jon Miller
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and theology is currently very worthless compared to how most christians live their lives
(most christians don't beleive the same asthe theologians beleive, and while pastors who go through college become more in tune with theologians, they mostly preach vastly different sermons because most of the people don't beleive the same way)
actually I am not sure about most, I got this from my bible teacher (a theologian from harvard, I beleive) at my college (which was lutheran)
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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there weren't scientists during the dark ages, only philophers
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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in the beggining there were philophers
these than plit into natural philophers, religious philophers, social philophers, and those who remained philophers
natural philophers begat the hard sciences
social philophers begat the soft sciences
religious philophers begat theology
those remained philophers are merely those who did not move on into doing sometihng useful
just as witch doctors use to be right occasionally (some herb would really do sometihng), so to were phiolophers occasionally right about something
now of course, we have science (hopefully at some point the soft sceinces will reach the level of the hard sciences)
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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exactly
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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but you forgot a stepp
engineers design it
workers build it
everyone else lives off it (And tries to take credit for it, especially the capitalist)
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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if only I had spelled philosophers right
Jon Miller
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
I'm starting to wonder if philosophers even understand the very basics of what ethics are...
If this thread is indictation, you don't even understand that ethics is not something that you should be "teaching" to people under the realm of it being "knowledge". |
In practical ethics this question is easily avoided, although it is at root a philosophical question and not something that scientists could tell us since they have nothing interesting to say about value. I certainly wouldn't buy into your gutter relativism and it doesn't save you from having to argue about ethics for reasons I won't go into in depth, but the basic point is that you have to be logically consistent in your moral beliefs no matter what they are - that's usually enough to obtain a rational basis for argument. (now there's a philosophical argument for dispensing with navel gazing and getting to the point).
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I pose these questions to you philosopher types, then explain to me why this should be taught in some kind of classroom or pondered by some elitist snob:
Is it ethical to get plastic surgery? |
Not really the sort of thing we bother with. I suppose if it was a general issue of justice there would be some point here, but that's too general to make this specific point interesting.
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Is it ethical to clone organs for the sake of donation? |
I don't see why not. However, ordinary human beings selling kidneys is a rather more dubious case.
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Is it ethical to donate blood? |
Of course it is, unless you have AIDS, Hepatitis, or some other blood borne disease; or you have religious beliefs that prohibit you from doing so.
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Is it ethical to receive blood transfusions? |
No. The literature tends to worry more about whether it is justifiable to give people transfusions against their wishes, or what to do when parents who are Jehovah's Witnesses deny doctors permission to perform a transfusion.
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Is it ethical to smoke when people don't want you to? |
If it harms their health, then yes.
These really aren't the questions that applied ethics deals with. We are more interested in:
Whether abortion is permissible and what the (logical) consequences of abortion policies are (did you know that it is quite likely that liberal abortion policies renders forcing men to pay child maintenance unethical).
Euthanasia.
What rationing principles are morally justifiable in health care (since it is a scarce good).
What rights parents have over their children and what reproductive tech does to our notion of parental rights and obligations.
Whether it is permissible to sell organs on the open market.
Whether it is permissible to force medical procedures on people in some cases.
etc. etc.
I'd point out that we don't expect perfect answers to these questions, only to be able to sort out better from worse options.
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Jon Miller
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and you guys can keep talking about them
meanwhile every day people will come to their own conclusions (and implement them by politicians) independent of you and yours
Jon Miller
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
In practical ethics this question is easily avoided, although it is at root a philosophical question and not something that scientists could tell us since they have nothing interesting to say about value. |
A scientist could tell you your wasting time, and we all know that time is priceless. 
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I certainly wouldn't buy into your gutter relativism |
Of course not, otherwise you'd be out of a job.
You've trained yourself to ponder the unimportant, ponder the trivial, ponder the useless to the point where you've somehow convinced yourself it is useful and relevant, and even vital.
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you have to be logically consistent in your moral beliefs no matter what they are |
Right, okay... 
Where did you pull this from?
People believe what they want, a lot of times their beliefs are inconsistent, and a lot of times you certainly won't agree with them.
Such is life as a human being. Surely a true philosopher could see that... 
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Not really the sort of thing we bother with. I suppose if it was a general issue of justice there would be some point here, but that's too general to make this specific point interesting.
I don't see why not. However, ordinary human beings selling kidneys is a rather more dubious case.
Of course it is, unless you have AIDS, Hepatitis, or some other blood borne disease; or you have religious beliefs that prohibit you from doing so.
No. The literature tends to worry more about whether it is justifiable to give people transfusions against their wishes, or what to do when parents who are Jehovah's Witnesses deny doctors permission to perform a transfusion.
If it harms their health, then yes. |
The reason I asked these questions, of course, is because if you ask them to 10 people, you won't get the same ten answers.
So what's the point in learning and teaching it?
I don't understand how you can't realize how relative ethics are to people's upbringing, religion, and beliefs, and why it's stupid to teach them in a classroom...
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Whether abortion is permissible and what the (logical) consequences of abortion policies are (did you know that it is quite likely that liberal abortion policies renders forcing men to pay child maintenance unethical).
Euthanasia.
What rationing principles are morally justifiable in health care (since it is a scarce good).
What rights parents have over their children and what reproductive tech does to our notion of parental rights and obligations.
Whether it is permissible to sell organs on the open market.
Whether it is permissible to force medical procedures on people in some cases.
etc. etc. |
So in other words, philosophers are high school debate club members? 
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02-03-2003 09:03
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