28-02-2003 02:32									#31
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quote: IIRC, some scalping laws don't prohibit reselling a ticket for its face value.

Most states set a value amount that differs from state to state. One example is NYC which charges for a 5% markup or 10 dollars which ever is greater.

That is the definition of scalping, Albert.
If you re-sell a ticket at face value, you aren't scalping the buyer.

	28-02-2003 02:36									#32
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Boris in my original message i was going to take a crack at gays and musicals but i deemed it innapropriate

	28-02-2003 20:53									#33
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Why would venues want to forbid scalping? Their tickets get sold anyway, and they can actually charge higher prices for them as scalping prices keep the cost artificially high. Without an organised resistance by the potential customers, the two would just benefit off each other.

	28-02-2003 21:05									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I disagree. Events such as this are limited-seating venues and so there isn't an unlimited supply of tickets. When scalpers obtain tickets, they take away from the pool of available seats, essentially holding those seats for ransom. It's not like you can just go down the block and see the same show. If I only go to New York only once every 5 years and want to see The Producers, its just not fair that the seats are all sold out because scalpers have snatched them up. What's to stop a company from buying every seat for a popular show and then reselling them at a huge cost? Seems like it is rather unfair for both the theater and its patrons.

Boris, My point is that the original seller of the tickets is not charging enough to bring the available supply into line with the demand. As price goes up, demand goes down. If there is demand for the scalpers tickets at these prices then the original seller should charge these prices. The problem is that the original sellers are undervaluing their product. Scalpers simply bring the market into equilibrium. If the product was not worth the price scalpers are charging then people wouldn't pay it.

Additionally, I might add, nothing has an unlimited supply. For example: If GM started selling cars for $20 each then demand would sky rocket. They set their price to bring production and demand into equilibrium. If they have to strong a demand for available production they raise prices. If they have a weak demand they lower prices (i.e. rebates, low interest, etc...)

Scalping should be legal because it is only a natural market force.

	28-02-2003 22:37									#35
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It's not that simple. The sellers may be selling at equilibrum, but a big scalper can generate an artificial shortage by hording the tickets, forcing the price up.

	28-02-2003 23:34									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's not that simple. The sellers may be selling at equilibrum, but a big scalper can generate an artificial shortage by hording the tickets, forcing the price up.

Exactly. The theater industry wouldn't be served by making it only so the rich could afford theater tickets.

	28-02-2003 23:38									#37
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the problem is that this is entertainment and you dont have the right to be entertained...

unless youre a gay man living in new york you crack me up boris!

	28-02-2003 23:53									#38
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 the problem is that this is entertainment and you dont have the right to be entertained... unless youre a gay man living in new york you crack me up boris!

You should quote me then in your sig. I'm already in several, and am trying to set a record for being quoted.

	01-03-2003 00:03									#39
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why not just give you my first born child?

	01-03-2003 00:06									#40
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going by simple supply and demand, this shows that ticket prices are in fact too low, especially for major events. The demand is so high that they would sell out if they raised their ticket prices once, twice, in some cases as much as 5 times what they sell it for.

	01-03-2003 00:11									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's not that simple. The sellers may be selling at equilibrum, but a big scalper can generate an artificial shortage by hording the tickets, forcing the price up.

As far as I know, I thought concert ticket's werent at an equilibrium. They set the price lower so that events could be sold out and cause massive hype etc..

quote: Exactly. The theater industry wouldn't be served by making it only so the rich could afford theater tickets.

If the supply does not meet demand, there's going to be other factor's that allowes tickets to be distrubuted unequally (connections, etc)

	01-03-2003 00:16									#42
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Rather than debating the morality of ticket scalping, perhaps we should look at the real-world situation, eh? I mean, by legalizing all forms of scalping, you're going to create this middle-man element where a bunch of crooks and bums will buy tickets in hopes of making money.

Ticket scalping is a lot like energy trading. Artificially inflating the prices of goods or services just so some dumbass can make some money without earning it.

	01-03-2003 00:19									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I disagree. Events such as this are limited-seating venues and so there isn't an unlimited supply of tickets. When scalpers obtain tickets, they take away from the pool of available seats, essentially holding those seats for ransom. It's not like you can just go down the block and see the same show. If I only go to New York only once every 5 years and want to see The Producers, its just not fair that the seats are all sold out because scalpers have snatched them up. What's to stop a company from buying every seat for a popular show and then reselling them at a huge cost? Seems like it is rather unfair for both the theater and its patrons.

You mean you can't reserve the seats in advance?

	01-03-2003 00:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's not that simple. The sellers may be selling at equilibrum, but a big scalper can generate an artificial shortage by hording the tickets, forcing the price up.

If, in fact, the seller was selling at the equilibrium price, then the scalper would be able to claim a higher price for some tickets, but would be left with extra tickets to sell. As some componet of demand is time related, the original equilibrium price would fall as this segment of demand fell off. The scalper would recoup this revenue by actually getting a higher price for the segment of demand that is neithier price or time sensitive. Theoretically, the scalper should end up at the same revenue as the theatre would have. This is the basis of equilibrium pricing.

Therefore, if the scalper could not anticipate a profit, they would not enter the market.

In your post you identified the shortage as artificial. That is exactly what it is.

	01-03-2003 00:24									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Rather than debating the morality of ticket scalping, perhaps we should look at the real-world situation, eh? I mean, by legalizing all forms of scalping, you're going to create this middle-man element where a bunch of crooks and bums will buy tickets in hopes of making money. Ticket scalping is a lot like energy trading. Artificially inflating the prices of goods or services just so some dumbass can make some money without earning it.

You cannot artificially inflate a price in a free market system. Energy trading is a poor example as the regulations involved make it less than the free market situation of ticket sales.

And lastly, Would not most retailers fall into the category of "middle men". If they do, then the analogy would call the current sale of theatre tickets as "wholesale to the public"

	01-03-2003 00:25									#46
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quote: Therefore, if the scalper could not anticipate a profit, they would not enter the market.

You must not go to many sporting events. Ticket scalpers are mostly dumbass homeless guys who don't bother thinking about whether they can profit or not. They just go to popular events, buy tickets, and re-sell them because it's not as if someone is going to go to a stadium and suddenly say, oh, I'm not going to pay 30 bucks instead of 15 to go to a Cubs game.... and then go home. It's stupid. Scalpers have the advantage because demand for their "commodity" is inflated. And by legalizing it completely, you'd see these "scalping" companies pop up where some rich 4sshole stands at the front of a ticket line and buys all the tickets to some event that would get sold out no matter what.

	01-03-2003 00:26									#47
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sava, and most people that buy tickets from scalpers are dumb ass yuppies that were looking for a deal at the last minute

	01-03-2003 00:30									#48
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quote: You cannot artificially inflate a price in a free market system.

WRONG!

You can if the commodity or service has near-infinite demand. Look at health care. People want to live, so you can artificially raise the price for health care because people aren't going to say, "oh yeah, this life-saving medicine or operation costs too much, I'm not going to get it."

And look at energy. People need heat in the winter. That's why de-regulation is bad. Heat companies could simply raise the prices of energy because demand is really really high.

This is why the free-market system is extortion and why the free-market concept should only be in consumer goods. That's it.

I'm not saying ticket sales are a necessity, don't interpret my post as that. I'm saying that middle-men entities in business are bad because they do artificially inflate prices. They don't bear the burden of expense in whatever industry they meddle in. And this goes against the free-market ideal... which, BTW, is flawed.

	01-03-2003 00:32									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 sava, and most people that buy tickets from scalpers are dumb ass yuppies that were looking for a deal at the last minute

Yeah, and I'd like to keep it that way. By opening the doors to scalping, you open up a flood gate of greedy 4ssholes who would make going to a ball-game for a fair price, a thing of the past.

	01-03-2003 00:41									#50
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quote: oh yeah, this life-saving medicine or operation costs too much, I'm not going to get it."

Sava, Sadly people do say this everyday. In a totally unrestrained free market it is apparent from history that monopolistic tendencies do develop. This is why responsible market oriented governments are needed. For example: The telephone would not have reached its sucess without regulated monopolistic powers. Governments do have a place in free market economies.

This example would NOT apply to ticket scalping.

	01-03-2003 00:43									#51
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You arguing as if I'm a proponent of the free-market system.

	01-03-2003 00:43									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sava You must not go to many sporting events. Ticket scalpers are mostly dumbass homeless guys who don't bother thinking about whether they can profit or not. They just go to popular events, buy tickets, and re-sell them because it's not as if someone is going to go to a stadium and suddenly say, oh, I'm not going to pay 30 bucks instead of 15 to go to a Cubs game.... and then go home. It's stupid. Scalpers have the advantage because demand for their "commodity" is inflated. And by legalizing it completely, you'd see these "scalping" companies pop up where some rich 4sshole stands at the front of a ticket line and buys all the tickets to some event that would get sold out no matter what.

Sava, this would not be the case if the original seller was selling at an equilibrium price. The "dumbass" segment is accounted for on both the selling and buying side

	01-03-2003 00:44									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sava You arguing as if I'm a proponent of the free-market system.

The system works the same weather you are a proponet or not. It was obvious to me that, at least for this argument, you are not.

	01-03-2003 00:47									#54
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So if an organization is selling tickets for their event lower than the demand, you think it's all right for some 4sshole to come in and buyout the tickets, negating the goodwill of the original seller?

Scalping organization would simply raise prices in all instances. And raising prices just so some idiot who didn't do anything to create/improve the product/service is wrong and immoral. Go get a job and contribute something to society instead of trying to make a quick buck taking advantage of increased demand.

With all the problems in the world, why do you feel the need to defend ticket scalpers and scumbags extraordinaires?

	01-03-2003 00:50									#55
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scalping organizations exsist, clearchannel communications

	01-03-2003 00:51									#56
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yeah, but they have limitations. And even legitimate scalping organizations are comprised mostly of scumbags and dumbasses.

	01-03-2003 02:54									#57
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk You mean you can't reserve the seats in advance?

Sure, but so can scalpers...

	01-03-2003 09:03									#58
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 If, in fact, the seller was selling at the equilibrium price, then the scalper would be able to claim a higher price for some tickets, but would be left with extra tickets to sell. As some componet of demand is time related, the original equilibrium price would fall as this segment of demand fell off.

Again it is not this simple. First of all, for many events such as concerts, the tickets are stratified. Even if the overall supply meets the demand at some point, this fails to hold true when people are willing to pay $40 but only $80 tickets are left. Scalpers can make a buck by selling $40 tickets at $60. Secondly, time restraint doesn't really apply. In fact, people tend to be willing to pay more as the event draws closer and closer. Buying tickets at the door from scalpers for a sold out event is like putting yourself up for ransom.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 The scalper would recoup this revenue by actually getting a higher price for the segment of demand that is neithier price or time sensitive. Theoretically, the scalper should end up at the same revenue as the theatre would have. This is the basis of equilibrium pricing.

You are assuming that the price is a linear function, which in fact is not the case. If a scalper creates a 50% shortage but can sell tickets at 400%, he will break even if he only sells half of the tickets he has. He can sell the rest at face value and that is pure profit for him.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 In your post you identified the shortage as artificial. That is exactly what it is.

People make money often from artificial shortages, esp. if the population is drivien by irrational mental states such as panic or desire. This is one of the shortfalls of classic economics.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 You cannot artificially inflate a price in a free market system.

However, entertainments events are by definition monopolies. There is only one such event at any given time and place. It is not a free market.