01-03-2003 11:35									#31
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quote: Idea's such a societial values & ideas of moral or immoral behavior are socially constructed. In essience it is held to be immoral because the majority of the people agree it is immoral. Just like the word "red" is socially constructed to mean the color red. All socially constructed things are created when a group of people all for a consensus and agree that a certain sound or symbol should mean a certain idea or sound. You will find that all of our commonly held beliefs including ideas like "right", "wrong", "justified", "unjustified", "moral", etc are socially constructed.

They are constructed in a social context, shaped by various aspects of a society (including non-majoritarian influences), but they are not constructed by societies. Societies don't have brains. Moral systems are constructed by individuals just as any other philosophical construct is. If I hold something to be immoral, it is immoral in my ethics system. If you hold something to be immoral, it is immoral in your ethics system.

quote: To deciding if you go to jail (or get a fine or whatever punishment) after commiting an illegal act.

?
I never asserted that my personal beliefs had any effect on Israeli law...

	01-03-2003 11:36									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Idea's such a societial values & ideas of moral or immoral behavior are socially constructed. In essience it is held to be immoral because the majority of the people agree it is immoral. Just like the word "red" is socially constructed to mean the color red. All socially constructed things are created when a group of people all for a consensus and agree that a certain sound or symbol should mean a certain idea or sound.

Noo no no no, what you're talking about are word definitions. Very different.

	01-03-2003 11:57									#33
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"These people are breaking the law. The law was passed by an elected government and if they want to change it then they should try to organize a political party. Don't you see we would have anarchy if every person got to ignore the laws they didn't like? "I don't want to pay my taxes because I don't like how the Congress spends money" or "I think speeding laws are facist so I'm going to ignore them" would just be the tip of the iceberg."

Well I think on the other side of the spectrum, you can't just support anything a government does because it was elected. Do you think it was right for blacks to resists de jure segregation in the south? I think the key is if you really think what the government is doing is wrong, fine engage in civil disobedience but be prepared to accept the consequences. I think in this case a person is willing to stand up for what he believes in and is willing to go to jail for it and that is admirable.

	01-03-2003 12:01									#34
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You're saying Israel isn't under threat of its existence? The Intifada has had about a thousand terror attacks, and these are the 10% of terror attacks that weren't caught before they happened, including some BIG ones such as an explosion of an oil (gas? I don't remember) storage area that was stopped before it could happen. It had the potential (AFAI remember, don't quoet me on this one) to kill thousands of people.
Add to that the fact that Israel is surrounded by hostile countries such as Lebanon, which allows Hezbollah to shell the Iraeli border, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia (all of which fund terrorist organisations such as Fatah/Hamas/Islamic Jihad and etc), and you're saying Israel's existence isn't threatened!?

	01-03-2003 21:07									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I think the key is if you really think what the government is doing is wrong, fine engage in civil disobedience but be prepared to accept the consequences. I think in this case a person is willing to stand up for what he believes in and is willing to go to jail for it and that is admirable.

Kudos to BD for cutting to the heart of the matter. This young man ha a personal belief that aid the occupation in any way is immoral. Rather than be allowed to weasal out of it by taking any of the deals offered, he is standing his ground and is prepared to go to prison over his beliefs. But he's not simply going to lie down and accept it, he's going to fight it, because he believes it's wrong.

Going to jail for your beliefs makes you a political prisoner.

	01-03-2003 21:21									#36
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quote: Going to jail for your beliefs makes you a political prisoner.

Correct, but he's not in jail for his beliefs.

Tandee, great points.

	01-03-2003 22:19									#37
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"These people are breaking the law. The law was passed by an elected government and if they want to change it then they should try to organize a political party. Don't you see we would have anarchy if every person got to ignore the laws they didn't like?"

The above is what I would call fascism.

'The place for a moral man when confronted by an immoral law is in jail'
-H.D.T.

The fact that a law was passed by an elected government does not make it moral or legal.

Liberal Democracy=the rights of the individual+democracy.

If the law violates individual rights, then it is not a law at all, it is null and void, just the baying and hooting of a mob of men with guns, whose only authority and legitimacy comes from fear and power.

If he is in prison because he was faced with a law that violated his right to freedom of conscience, then yes he is of course a political prisoner.

Israel should make the draft voluntary anyway, conscription is immoral.

If the price of security is immorality, violation of right, then we are all better off dead than living a lie.

	01-03-2003 22:33									#38
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hi ,

political prisoner , ..... , ...... nah he is not a political prisoner , ......

have a nice day

	01-03-2003 22:35									#39
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Why is he not?

Just not wanting him to be one doesn't make it so.

	01-03-2003 23:12									#40
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Because he's not inprisoned for his views. He's imprisoned for desertion, disobeying order or something like that.

	01-03-2003 23:52									#41
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Well, he's not in prison at all yet, though other signers of the Seniors Declaration are. But he very likely will be imprisoned.

	01-03-2003 23:58									#42
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Using your definition... EVERYBODY in jail is a political prisoner A thief caught stealing obviously doesn't believe in a law against it... so he must be a political prisoner as well since he is just standing up for his rights while breaking the law and is being put in prison for it

	02-03-2003 01:18									#43
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quote: If the price of security is immorality, violation of right, then we are all better off dead than living a lie.

Cant blame you for believing in that.

When security is guaranteed, you can allow yourself to think about morals and ethics. When it's not, your perspectives change very quickly.

	02-03-2003 01:21									#44
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Calling him a political prisoner isn't using the best term. Political prisoner brings to mind someone who is arrested by the secret police for condemning the actions of the government. Not quite the same thing as having mandatory military service during a time of war.

	02-03-2003 01:25									#45
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quote: The population of Israel is in no real danger of being "wiped out."

I beg to differ. They have about six or seven larger countries all around them that highly dislike them and many of which still refuse to even include them on their maps because 'they're not a real country and we'll manage to get rid of them soon enough anyway' Every couple of days they get a new terrorist attack on them. There are countless organizations committed to their destruction. Israel is safe (to the extent that it is) right now BECAUSE they have a large military. If they didn't, I think you can guess as well as I what would happen to them, and if you need a hint, it's what's happened to them something like five or six times in the past fifty years - mass Arab invasion.

quote: If the people believe their state is worth defending, they could join the military. If a military needs a draft to operate, that's a good indication that the war and/or state running the war is morally questionable.

I don't remember what political orientation you were, but this sounds a lot like how conservatives say we don't need welfare because if people thought the poor were worth taking care of, then they would give them the money themselves. The truth is that there are a lot of people who think their country is worth defending, but who aren't particularly anxious to go out there and defend it themselves. I don't think any Israeli, even the guy in this article, wants Israel to be destroyed, they're just hoping that its destruction can be prevented without them. Which is in my opinion a rather risky point of view. I suspect the Israeli generals have looked to see whether the number of volunteers they would be likely to get is sufficient to do what needs doing, seen it wasn't, and decided to have a draft.

For people who want drafts without reason, like that US legislature a few months ago, I have no sympathy or respect whatsoever.

	02-03-2003 01:31									#46
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quote: If the law violates individual rights

Oh, don't get me started on THAT.

	02-03-2003 01:41									#47
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So, when pro-life demonstrators are locked up for being to close to an abortion clinic, they are political prisoners?

Careful, Che. In seeking to elevate this boy's admittedly noble act, you may end up reducing an entirely different level of sacrifice to something...less.

	02-03-2003 01:44									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Giant_Squid For people who want drafts without reason, like that US legislature a few months ago, I have no sympathy or respect whatsoever.

Uhhhh... one moron stated that a draft would be good... the US legislature has NOT wanted a draft in MANY, MANY, MANY years.

	02-03-2003 02:04									#49
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quote: I don't remember what political orientation you were, but this sounds a lot like how conservatives say we don't need welfare because if people thought the poor were worth taking care of, then they would give them the money themselves. The truth is that there are a lot of people who think their country is worth defending, but who aren't particularly anxious to go out there and defend it themselves. I don't think any Israeli, even the guy in this article, wants Israel to be destroyed, they're just hoping that its destruction can be prevented without them. Which is in my opinion a rather risky point of view. I suspect the Israeli generals have looked to see whether the number of volunteers they would be likely to get is sufficient to do what needs doing, seen it wasn't, and decided to have a draft.

actually this guy thinks that by leaving the territories we would have peace, and security.

	02-03-2003 02:09									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Uhhhh... one moron stated that a draft would be good... the US legislature has NOT wanted a draft in MANY, MANY, MANY years.

Ming: 28 years isn't that long...

	02-03-2003 02:15									#51
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Probably a majority of the people on this site haven't even been alive for 28 years... It is a long time

	02-03-2003 07:21									#52
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quote: I beg to differ. They have about six or seven larger countries all around them that highly dislike them and many of which still refuse to even include them on their maps because 'they're not a real country and we'll manage to get rid of them soon enough anyway'

Let's see. Israel's neighbors are Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and possibly Iraq if it cooperates with Syria. Egypt and Jordan obviously would never attack. Saudi Arabia would never attack unless there's a coup. Iraq would never attack unless it wants to speed up an American invasion. So, all that's left is Syria. Not exactly a major threat to Israel given the technological and economic disparity. Particularly given Israel's allies (i.e. the US). Certainly, they would never be able to wipe out Israel's population.

quote: Every couple of days they get a new terrorist attack on them. There are countless organizations committed to their destruction.

Which would be reduced significantly if Israel leaves the West Bank and Gaza. Even more so, if Israel takes a more enlightened approach with respect to immigration and trade. These are some of the issues driving the refuseniks.

quote: Israel is safe (to the extent that it is) right now BECAUSE they have a large military. If they didn't, I think you can guess as well as I what would happen to them, and if you need a hint, it's what's happened to them something like five or six times in the past fifty years - mass Arab invasion

1. AFAIK, there were only 3 wars involving multiple Arab states (the Lebanese War was bilateral).
2. In two of those wars (the Independence and 6-Day Wars), Israeli agression played a significant part. In the Independence War, the vast majority of the fighting took place outside of Israel and much of it involved Arabs fighting against Arabs. It was for the most part a partition of Palestine, not an invasion of Israel.

quote: I don't remember what political orientation you were,

Anarcho-syndicalist.

quote: but this sounds a lot like how conservatives say we don't need welfare because if people thought the poor were worth taking care of, then they would give them the money themselves.

Bad analogy. Defending one's state would involve self-interest under the aforementioned circumstances, charity usually doesn't.

quote: The truth is that there are a lot of people who think their country is worth defending, but who aren't particularly anxious to go out there and defend it themselves.

Chickenhawks? I don't much care for their opinion.

quote: I suspect the Israeli generals have looked to see whether the number of volunteers they would be likely to get is sufficient to do what needs doing, seen it wasn't, and decided to have a draft.

1. If Israel ends its occupation, a significant portion of its military wouldn't be needed.
2. Why do you say this? Many European states certainly don't need to conscript, but they do it anyways.

	02-03-2003 07:37									#53
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Ramo, please, learn something about the situation before you stick your head in.
1. Israel ended its occupation. Then Arafat called for the intifada. Why? His excuse was that some old fart of a politican with no chance of being elected walked in a public place. Many PA officials actually admit that they had planned for the intifada months before it began, or the excuse of Mr. Sharon's visit was given.
In addition, you are truly ignorant if you honestly believe anything an Arab government says. Israel at least has some credibility; Arab states as well as the PA have always lied about what their intentions were.

	02-03-2003 07:58									#54
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quote: Israel ended its occupation

No it didn't. There was a less oppressive occupation than currently, yes, but West Bank and Gaza were never autonomous under Israeli rule. That's why they've been considered "occupied territories."

quote: In addition, you are truly ignorant if you honestly believe anything an Arab government says.

What are you on about? Specific comment please.

And yes, I do believe some things that Arab gov't's say. For instance, I don't think any of them would dispute that the Earth is round.

	02-03-2003 08:09									#55
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quote: 1. If Israel ends its occupation, a significant portion of its military wouldn't be needed.

Right, because before Israel occupied those territories, there were no wars or any terrorism against Israel. Oh wait. There were.

	02-03-2003 08:30									#56
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I didn't say all of it wouldn't be needed. And times have changed.

	02-03-2003 13:25									#57
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quote: There was a less oppressive occupation than currently

the vast majority (~99%) of the palestinians were under autonomous countrol, and free movement throughout the autonomy, And the peace process was going in the way of establishing a palestinian State. and yes, it would've been territorially intact.

I tend to believe Dennis Ross more than electronicintifada.com

quote: Let's see. Israel's neighbors are Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and possibly Iraq if it cooperates with Syria. Egypt and Jordan obviously would never attack. Saudi Arabia would never attack unless there's a coup. Iraq would never attack unless it wants to speed up an American invasion. So, all that's left is Syria. Not exactly a major threat to Israel given the technological and economic disparity. Particularly given Israel's allies (i.e. the US). Certainly, they would never be able to wipe out Israel's population.

And historically, we've reached this situation ONLY because we historically had a strong army, that relied on conscription and drafts.

	02-03-2003 13:54									#58
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quote: the vast majority (~99%) of the palestinians were under autonomous countrol, and free movement throughout the autonomy, And the peace process was going in the way of establishing a palestinian State. and yes, it would've been territorially intact.

Water, trade barriers, permits, immigration. Blah, blah, blah.... blah. Sure you want to rehash this?

quote: I tend to believe Dennis Ross more than electronicintifada.com

quote: And historically, we've reached this situation ONLY because we historically had a strong army, that relied on conscription and drafts.

1. That's not relevant to the current situation.
2. Why do you say that?

	02-03-2003 16:16									#59
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quote: Water, trade barriers, permits, immigration. Blah, blah, blah.... blah. Sure you want to rehash this?

I didn't say they were an independent state yet. That's what the negotiations are for. And yes, I believe that Israel would give palestinians their water resources. It gave water resources to Jordan, though it didn't present a major nuisance, like the conflict with the palestinians is to Israel.

quote:

SOME sites on the internet have started to spread the information that Israel's final offer was some sort of cantonization. This has been denied by Dennis Ross, a veteran of american efforts to mediate the conflict in the Clinton era.

quote: 1. That's not relevant to the current situation.

How is the past of the conflict not relevant to the current geo-political situation in regards to the relation of Israel and it's neighbours?

quote: 2. Why do you say that?

It was Israel's military might that let it stay as a sovereign country in the region, not it neighbours' respect for her souvereignity. Its' regular conscription of its' youth, has created a very large percentage of its' population that is battle trained, and capable, and therefor, its' drafted soldiers were of relative high quality, being exprienced in procedures of the army, handling military equipment, etc.

	02-03-2003 17:43									#60
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Ramo :

Look on the security reasons.

1) Israel has huge numerical inferiority.
2) It cannot survive a prolonged war. That's why we either win decisively and quickly, or lose everything.

So if war starts, we need all our men capable of fighting ASAP. 48 hours at maximum.

The Israeli standing army is too small to wage total war, this is why we rely on reserves.

So currently, if total war breaks out the standing army is on it's own for a few hours/days, and then it's more or less quadrupled by the reserves.

Those reserves are people who've been in the army, know what to do and how, get 30 days of training every year. Basically they are quality personnel.

If draft becomes voluntary, first the standing army will become much smaller. And then, a few decades later the reserves will be almost nonexistant.

So what happens if we really need those hundreds of thousands of men? Countries like the US or other big countries if they are faced with total war have weeks and months to train more people.
We dont have that luxury. We need everyone who is capable of fighting to fight as soon as possible.