14-03-2003 16:46									#31
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BTW, great choice for April! A classic...

Carolus

	14-03-2003 17:46									#32
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--"when voting, other than your book vote only for books you haven't read yet."

That is what I've done.

The problem with going with the really big name titles is that they're the ones that have already been discussed endlessly online. It's just not quite as interesting as going over something you haven't read before, you know?

So far I've read all but three books on the list, and one of those I haven't read because I haven't liked any of the author's other work. One or two of the ones I have don't really seem like there'd be much discussion about them.

Come to that, Ender's Game isn't exactly the book most requiring literary analysis. Card makes a point of mentioning it in his introduction. Oh well.

Wraith
"Nothing, not even pleasure, can bind two humans as close as a long-enduring vendetta, for it forces upon each a constant awareness of the strengths and vulnerabilities of each other, and commits them to a common purpose which colors all other activities."
-- Hakur ("In Conquest Born")

	14-03-2003 18:21									#33
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Well, this is a new group and one thing I've noticed is when a new group is formed, the easily recognizable "classics" are always chosen among the first films. For example, when the movie group started, three of our first 5 films were "Citizen Kane", "The Godfather", and "Casablanca." Great movies, but c'mon! But lately we've done "lesser" films, such as "Election" and Disneys "Beauty and the Beast."

Point is, we will get the "classics" out of our system and move on to other things in time.

Like you, except for the first book (which I selected) I have not voted for books that I've previously read, and I think a couple of people are doing the same as well.

Perhaps one month I can make it so that we can only nominate authors who've been published novelists less than, say, 5 years. How's that sound?

	14-03-2003 18:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Point is, we will get the "classics" out of our system and move on to other things in time. Like you, except for the first book (which I selected) I have not voted for books that I've previously read, and I think a couple of people are doing the same as well. Perhaps one month I can make it so that we can only nominate authors who've been published novelists less than, say, 5 years. How's that sound?

I've read over a third of the nominations on this list, and they're all great books, as I'm sure the others are as well, so it's difficult to choose. I find the selections a little too diverse.

Perhaps the person whose nomination wins can establish a "theme" for the next round of nominations, such as "unsung masterpieces", "really hard sci-fi", or "best short story collections".

Then everybody picks a work that they feel best exemplifies this theme. To add some variety, the "theme" establisher can also pick who gets to decide the "theme" next time, say the second place finisher, last place, or whatever.

If this suggestion is too confusing, let me know, and I'll add a few more rules.

	15-03-2003 00:04									#35
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'Perhaps the person whose nomination wins can establish a "theme" for the next round of nominations, such as "unsung masterpieces", "really hard sci-fi", or "best short story collections". '

That's not a bad idea. Any discussion?

	15-03-2003 00:26									#36
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WHAT? No Roger Zelazney? I nominate the original 5 volume Amber Chronicles, Lord of Light, and Roadmarks.

I would also add James Hogan's Code of the Lifemaker --one of the great treatises on skepticism ever written and a damn good story on its own right.

	15-03-2003 00:39									#37
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You are NOT nominating 7 books! Re-read the OP and reconsider.

	15-03-2003 00:47									#38
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Amber Chronicles is basically one book. I mean, each one is like 86 pages long, and they don't make much sense individually. So that's my nominee. the other books are my nominees for the upcoming months. I'm just listing them now. or I retract them for the timebeing if that's better...

	15-03-2003 01:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by randomturn Amber Chronicles is basically one book. I mean, each one is like 86 pages long, and they don't make much sense individually.

There is a collected edition, perhaps you can nominate that.

Although it is like 1000 pages.

	15-03-2003 01:03									#40
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Yeah, I won't remember for the upcoming months... you think I'm keeping a list here?

So, "Amber Chronicles" it is.

	15-03-2003 01:05									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Static23 There is a collected edition, perhaps you can nominate that. Although it is like 1000 pages.

And $16 if you buy it new on Amazon!

Is it even sci-fi?

	15-03-2003 06:05									#42
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--"Point is, we will get the "classics" out of our system and move on to other things in time. "

Yeah, but I'm an American. You can't expect me to be paitent, now, can you?

--"That's not a bad idea. Any discussion?"

Sounds like a good idea. At the least it'll keep the same books from popping up every time.
Still, I can't wait to see the flame wars over what qualifies as fitting a particular sub-genre...

--"Is it even sci-fi?"

No, they aren't. They're fantasy, and there isn't really any technological factor involved (that is, not even science fantasy). I do like Zelazny, but these books don't really qaulify for the group.

Wraith
"The more complex the language, the greater its capacity to influence the thoughts of men."
-- Harkur ("In Conquest Born")

	15-03-2003 06:51									#43
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Lord of Light is a valid nomination though. Let's just pretend that's precisely what was nominated.

	15-03-2003 08:12									#44
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I dunno, I'd have to say Amber is more sf than fantasy since it is fundamentally metaphysical and not fantastical. It anticipated chaos theory and complexity theory and alludes strongly to the scientific/philosophical debate on human free will versus determinism. It takes place in a quantum-mechanical infinite-universes multiverse. So while it may not be technological, it is deeply grounded in science theory. So I stick with this nomination: the original 5 volume set of the Amber Chronicles (and it's well short of 1000 pages).

	15-03-2003 17:18									#45
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Please, link to a current edition of the 5-volume set. I can only find the 10-book set on Amazon.

Danke

	15-03-2003 19:05									#46
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--"Lord of Light is a valid nomination though."

That would work. Or Doorways in the Sand.

--"I'd have to say Amber is more sf than fantasy since it is fundamentally metaphysical and not fantastical."

What did I say about the genre flame wars?

In any case, I don't see it. For one, metaphysical is the same thing as fantasy to me. For another, I don't remember them getting all quantum about things, they pretty much just accepted that the shadow worlds existed and that they could manipulate them. It was definitely treated more as magic than technology (even extremely advanced technology).

In fact, the only real tech aspect I can recal is what Merlin was trying to put together in the second half of the series.

Wraith
"If a man understands the priorities of his fellows, he can lead them. If he fails in this, all the good intentions in the world won't buy him loyalty."
-- Harkur ("In Conquest Born")

	15-03-2003 21:24									#47
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I'll second Tuberski's nomination of "Armour" by Steakley: IMO it definately beat out Heinlen's "Starship Troopers" as well as Haldeman's "The Forever War" as far as combat sci-fi of this nature, and I really loved the ending.

D

	16-03-2003 00:16									#48
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quote: Originally posted by randomturn It anticipated chaos theory and complexity theory and alludes strongly to the scientific/philosophical debate on human free will versus determinism. It takes place in a quantum-mechanical infinite-universes multiverse. So while it may not be technological, it is deeply grounded in science theory.

While I am prepared to accept the Amber novels as a form of Sci-Fi Fantasy, in no way will I agree that it "anticipated chaos theory and complexity theory" or that it's "deeply grounded in science theory".

Zelazny is a fine and intelligent writer, but his primary sources are Joseph Campbell, and the bits of Jungian psychology that haven't been glossed over by the psyhological community in the last 75 years. IMO, this stuff more mysticism than metaphysics.

	16-03-2003 00:56									#49
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It is likely that the Amber books are of those novels that can be argued for both sides. So, the question now becomes 'how is the book sold'?

According to the publisher, the book(s) are a "fantasy" and are sold as such.

Another site confirms:

quote: It may be for this reason that RZ's sf was language-driven, irony-choked, corrosively playful, and -- after the early years of his career -- intermittent; and that he is now best known for his works of fantasy, in particular the 2 linked sequences making up the ongoing Amber series.

Therefore, the Amber books are not science fiction and thus aren't eligible for voting. But Lord of Light is science fiction and will be randomturns nominee, unless he states otherwise by Monday morning.

	16-03-2003 01:03									#50
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Amber is definetely not SF. There arent any scientific/technological aspects involved at all.

If we had a vote for fantasy books though, Amber would've been my first choice. It's way above all the LoTR crap.
*ducks*

	16-03-2003 01:11									#51
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Any other nominations? I'm going to start the voting Monday morning (EST, -5GMT).

	16-03-2003 04:48									#52
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What's wrong with the 10-Book Volume?

There arent any scientific/technological aspects involved at all.

What about gunpowder?

	16-03-2003 12:01									#53
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They could be riding from world to world(I forgot the terminology) on starships instead of horses and it still would be fantasy.

It all boils down to the discussion couple months ago on what is sci-fi and what is not. As long as there is no scientific explanation, even as crappy as in Star Trek, it's not sci-fi.
My opinion of course.

	16-03-2003 12:04									#54
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Well, the publisher markets it as fantasy, and they should know, so... :shrugs:

	16-03-2003 12:06									#55
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The Uplift War by David Brin; part of his first Uplift trilogy. Of course, it does mention other books, even if it is somewhat self-contained....

Well, perhaps Brightness Reef by Brin. Different set of dieas, but brin has some very interesting ones.

	16-03-2003 12:09									#56
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Which, GePap? Is Brightness Reef self-contained ala Uplift War?

	16-03-2003 15:44									#57
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I dug out my copy of Empyrion - here's the blurb from the back of it.

Traveller, debt-dodger, itinerant critic and writer of history books nobody buys, Orion Treet is astounded to be invited to accompany top-secret mission: to observe and document an extraterrestrial colony on a newly-discovered planet.

But the paradise planet Treet and his companions are promised is a nightmare world locked in a spiral of hate, fear and death. The Earthlings' arrival rekindles an impossibly ancient feud - a deadly conflict between two highly evolved civilisations. It is a struggle for the future of a world, a battle where there can be no spectators and everyone must choose a side.

It's a great book, weaving science, sociology, politics, morality and many other strands into a cohesive whole. The characterisations, while sometimes bizarre, are very well moulded, and the two opposing socities are well fleshed out.

	16-03-2003 22:09									#58
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Which, GePap? Is Brightness Reef self-contained ala Uplift War?

Sorry JohnT, but just after I got ofline I realized my mistake. NO, Brigthness Reef is not at all self-contained, unlike The Uplift War, but the book I was thinking of at the time was not even part of the whole Uplift universe by Brin's Glory Season, which is another thing all together.

	17-03-2003 02:36									#59
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Well, unless otherwise notified, I will consider "The Uplift War" to be your nomination as it was the first book mentioned.

Also, I added your selection to my list on page 2 (I have 20-posts per page). We now have 17!

I start the voting thread tomorrow morning, meaning that no more nominations after that time.

So, if you haven't nominated,

Last edited by JohnT on 17-03-2003 at 02:41

	17-03-2003 18:27									#60
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All right, this one is closed. Voting thread upcoming...