13-04-2003 23:45									#271
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The way I did it was

(1) Disband a cavalry for the first 20 shields.
(2) Short rush a cavalry for the next 60 shields.
(3) Build the last 20 shields normally.

The disband was to get over the 2x price hump, and the short rush was to avoid paying for all of the remaining 80 shields when city production could cover at least 20 of them.

	14-04-2003 03:19									#272
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I wasn't quite clear what you had meant, and this clears it up. Very interesting concept, and a new way to work the system I didin't know.

	14-04-2003 08:20									#273
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Hi everybody...

Well I got to play for a while today. I just didn't feel like OCC so I fired up 207 for some more huge map action.

It actually took me a couple minutes to get used the the fact that I was almost in the tech lead and that I had a huge empire opposed to one city. I was raking in the cash and had a large army to do my bidding. I actually made a mistake right off by trading away scientific method for a butt load of money and other nice stuff. But I wasn't done building ToE yet!!!

The first order of business today was the elimination of the Zulu. This was completed using my 5 elite cavalry I had lying around. I figured cavalry vs. impi would be a unfair fight in my advantage and my best bet to get my first leader of the game. And it worked. Good thing too. Since my mistake trading scientific method the other civs were also building the ToE. Since I was almost done researching replaceable parts I did some investigation and saw that I had enough time to finish replaceable parts before I rushed the ToE. Now Shaka and Hammurabi are hanging out in my dungeon of shame.

Politically it's been interesting. After years of war finally Japan and Mongolia have made peace. England and Egypt signed a MPP and the Ottomans and Korea also signed a MPP. It's gonna be a bloodbath over on the other continent the next time there's a war. That's another thing that I messed up at first. I was expecting Wang to hate my guts but instead he was very friendly. Mixed up my games again. Oh well.

Bismark is one crazy cat. I had reduced the Germans down to three cities. I figured I'd use them as a kind of buffer between me and the Mongols until I decided to take them out. Well Bismark goes and declares war on the Mongols. Okay whatever. And then he tries to get me in the war too. Umm, no. I am definatly not ready to take on Temujin just yet. So Temujin asks me if I will join them in a trade embargo against the Germans. Sure why not, they're gonna be gone in a few turns anyways.

That's where I am. I have the next two days off from work so I'll get more in. Maybe I'll even finish it up. I'm getting close to tanks and once I do the Japanese are in big, big trouble.

BigD

Last edited by BigDork on 17-04-2003 at 00:49

	14-04-2003 17:54									#274
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: a civ that makes demands of a nation that just wiped out one of the world's next greatest powers in one turn and another in two has no business living.

Exactly.

Interesting that it was the Arabs who messed with both of us.

-Arrian

	15-04-2003 09:40									#275
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Hi everybody...

Well I had a long night with 207. I'll write all about it later but I've been sitting infront of my computer for over 6 hours and have had enough. More tonight.

BigD

	16-04-2003 07:50									#276
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Hi everybody...

I finally got some software for screenshots(that was free) so attached is a screen from my very first go at 207. It isn't pretty.

Tomorrow I'll regail you all with the tale of a large war against Japan and something kinda stupid I did.

BigD

Attachment: au207 1990bc.jpg
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	17-04-2003 01:26									#277
	Oh how the mighty have fallen Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi everybody...

AU207 is taking forever. I definatly am not a fan of huge maps. It takes me about 5 minutes a turn just ordering my workers around. Anyway...

As I said I ended up playing a lot the other day. I said 6 hours but it was closer to 8. I really took a big chunk out of the game.

I think I'll start just about the time I get tanks. For many, many years Hannibal has wanted to punish the evil Japanese empire. Why is not quite remembered but it has to be done. I even did prebuilds for tanks. I wanted tanks and I wanted lots of them. Once I got motorized transportation(I believe that's the tech) I started churning out tanks just as fast as possible. Soon my army of unstoppable metal death was ready.

A long time ago I had stranded a Japanese spearman on an island next to one of my cities. I new that if I had demanded he be removed that it would mean war. Tokugawa is just that kind of a guy. And for years I let him stay not ready for a war with Japan. I learned my lesson from the last war, or so i thought.

So when I had about 50 tanks ready to spill over the border I so kindly asked Tokugawa to remove his offending spearman from my island. As expected he declared war. And my tanks were on the move. I captured several cities on the first turn and got into position to grab more on the second turn. I used my more obsolete units to grab as many workers as possible before they all scurried away.

Well then I got a shock. I ended my turn thinking that this was gonna be a nice quick war with me total dominating the Japanese. I had set what I felt were very reasonable and achievable goals knowing that I wasn't gonna take the whole continent in this one war. Anyway I end my turn and suddenly unit after unit appears. When all was said and done there were about 70 enemy units poised for a counter-attack. Eep!!! Not what I was expecting at all. While I was not overly concerned because most of it was cavalry and infantry vs. tanks and it was the AI after all, the sheer number of units made it a little dangerous. If the AI was any better at warfare I could have had a couple of problems.

So instead I stopped my advance and let the Japanese units get ground down. I'd wait until the stacks of units were on my railroads and then send in the tanks. Attack and after the battle hurry the tanks away to be healed. A few turns of this and then there was no more cavalry. A few turns later most of the infantry was gone too. I'd still get mini-stacks coming at me every turn but Japan was done as a military super-power.

	17-04-2003 01:38									#278
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After the second turn of the war I was worried about reaching my objectives. I considered pulling the Mongols into the war but didn't want to be stuck at war for 20 turns or until Temujin and Tokugawa make peace. So I stuck it out. And honestly it worked out for me.

Once I had reduced the opposing forces I easily reached my objectives. I was easily out-producing the Japanese and was sending 4 or 5 new tanks to the front every turn thanks to a very complete railroad network.

And I would have stopped after reaching my objectives if Tokugawa would have agreed to peace. But he refused to even talk to me. Okay then. So each turn I'd take one or two more cities and each turn he refused to talk. I've never had an AI civ refuse me for so long. Finally having taken their capitol he was ready to sit down at the negotiation tables. But he wanted a straight peace. I would gain nothing more than what I'd already taken. But with war weariness starting to show up strongly I decided it was a good idea.

So now the Japanese are a broken society. I have destroyed their once mighty army and have taken their ancient capitol city from them. Oh well, to bad, so sad. So now I'm getting ready to remove the Mongols from the map. I've had it out for Temujin since my last try at 207. I just don't like the Mongols and am going to show it to them with all my new shiny MA.

Hopefully I'll be done soon. I've gotten several of the modern age techs already. I actually haven't gotten fission yet however. I'll probably just end up trading for it. I'm pretty sure I could win with a UN vote and don't want to go that route. One thing that I've improved on because of 302 is my tech trading skills. I'm making lots of cash because of tech whoring some. Yay!!!

	17-04-2003 01:43									#279
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

And now BigDork's dorkiest mistake of the game...

I felt like a total moron when all this was said and done. As I said I was having some trouble with the Japanese at first. So I figured I'd head straight for MA's to help kick some Japanese butt. So I am running at 100% and get the tech soon enough. I go to upgrade all my tanks to MA and can't do it.

Dang it, where's my aluminum??? I go to my advisor and check it out. Nope, none connected. I look all over the map and can't find any. I'm just about to curse out whoever set up this friggin map but I know that others had it so where could it be? I'm still looking all over the map when I decide to go back and check out the tech tree again.

Ummm, yeah...you kinda need to research rocketry to get aluminum. I know this. Honestly I do. But in my rush to get MA I just totally brain farted. Oh well, live and learn.

BigD

And whoever it was who did the map, don't worry, it wasn't bad curses. I luv ya.

	17-04-2003 05:23									#280
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hi everybody...

One other thing of note from my war from with the Japanese. I started the game with 0 artillery and ended with about 15. The Japanese were nice enough to provide me with all of them. So now I have a whole bunch of artillery to use against the Mongols in my next war. Very helpful.

BigD

Wow it's a slow night at work

	17-04-2003 07:35									#281
	Game, Set, Match Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It's all over, folks. As I suspected, via the cultural win:

Attachment: au207 victory!.jpg
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	17-04-2003 07:37									#282
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Replay Screenies, Part I

Attachment: au207 replay.jpg
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	17-04-2003 07:39									#283
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Replay screenies, part duex:

Attachment: au207 replay ii.jpg
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	17-04-2003 07:42									#284
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Replay screenies, finale:

Attachment: au207 replay iii.jpg
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	17-04-2003 07:45									#285
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Dang Arrian...

You really dominated that game. You controlled more of the continent than I do now 400 years earlier. But what's with letting the Zulu live???

BigD

	17-04-2003 07:50									#286
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Some interesting things I learned from the replay:

GA's:

Aztecs - 2590 BC (with 1 city!)
Babs - I missed it, but it was roughly 400BC
Egypt (me) - 410 AD
Celts - 590 AD
India - 780 AD
Japan - 780 AD
Mongols - 780 AD
Zulu - 780 AD
Arabs - 1380 AD

Great Leaders:

Arabs - 1
French - 1
Mongols - 1 (which I killed)
England - 2
Japan - 4
Ottomans - 1
Zulu - 1
Korea - 1
Egypt - 10

Clearly, the ultra-early Aztec GA wrecked them. They were worthless & weak, though they did outlive the Babs, Germans, Mongols, Americans, Japanese, Vikings and English. The Arabs were saved by the bell: I would have captured their last city in 2 more turns.

I will have more to say tomorrow, but for now I leave you with one last screenshot, one that makes me proud:
I had just hit the Modern Age when I won.

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	17-04-2003 07:52									#287
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BD,

I just couldn't come up with a reason to kill them. When I finished Japan, I really needed to a period of peace (the Viking war hardly counted... it lasted ~5 turns) and development in Democracy. Once I was ready to rumble again, I had other fish to fry.

-Arrian

	17-04-2003 18:29									#288
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Certain things are easier on a huge map, and certain things are harder.

It's easier, I think, to keep up in tech & find trading partners. I think that generating Great Leaders is also easier, because of the sheer number of units involved in warfare. I got ten with a non-militaristic civ and I had only just begun using Tanks the turn before I won. Ten leaders would be a good/great game as a militaristic civ on a standard map. The counterbalance to that effect, however, is the scale of wars has a tendency to slow them down unless you have overwhelming force. I think it is also easier, once you have established yourself as a world power by taking our a couple of neighbors, to sit back and watch the rest of the world go to hell in a handbasket post-nationalism (MPPs).

On the other hand, it is harder to gain control of all the luxuries. That means you have to trade for them. Then again, since there are so many more civs, and often the smaller ones fall behind in tech, you can often trade outdated tech for the luxury you want. So it's not that bad. Strategic resources could be an issue as well, though I did not encounter that problem

Wonder building... well, if anything it might have been easier, though I'm not sure why.

I built: Great Library, Hanging Gardens, Sistine, Sun Tzu, Leos, Copernicus, Newton, ToE

I rushed: Bachs, Smiths, Universal Suffrage, Hoover

I captured: Pyramids (Mongol), Oracle (Babs)

Other civs built: Colossus (French), Great Lighthouse (Korean), Magellan (French), Shakespeare (Korean)

Speaking of the Koreans... once I crushed Mongolia & Japan (who both got awesome land, and hence managed to trip, fall, and be powerful), they were the "big dog" of the AI civs. I didn't look closely to see if they had a big terrain advantage over the English, but I get the sense that they didn't. Granted, the English suck, and the Aztecs were hamstrung in 2590BC, but from the replay it is not apparent that the Koreans had the advantage from the get go. They fought a pretty tough war vs. the English and eventually prevailed, and that's pretty much it. I have long held the opinion that the AI does better with certain trait combos, namely Comm/Ind and Comm/Sci. In my games, I very often find a strong Greece or Korea. That suprises me, since I view that trait combo as poor (I totally understand the Comm/Ind combo - that one is pretty strong). I think the common denominator is the Commercial trait and the extra money & corruption reduction it provides. The AI is utterly incapable of dealing with the Forbidden Palace. It is also normally strapped for cash. The Commercial trait helps with those problems.

I have a feeling if one were to create a Comm/Sci civ and give it a badass medieval UU and a "3" aggression rating, you would see more "killer AIs."

-Arrian

	17-04-2003 19:51									#289
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Korea was destined to prevail on the England/Korea/Random island. It had a better starting position terrain-wise, and was had a more central capital than either of the other two civs.

Good game Arrian, and thanks for the closing thoughts (the best part, for me at least!).


Dominae

	17-04-2003 19:58									#290
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Good lord Arrian, you blow my mind. You played Diety, right? Sheesh! I'd be happy with what you got on Regent!

Without rereading this whole thread, how many "modern units" on the average did you use in each significant offensive, if you can remember? By "modern" I mean "up to date"... War Chariots in the ancient era, Knights further on, etc.

As for Korea: I've noticed that on Huge Maps, unless they're wiped out, Korea tends to be the only civ that ever gives me a run for the money, tech/prosperity wise, consistently, irregardless of start position.

	17-04-2003 20:34									#291
	Remove this text

No, no, no. I played Monarch! That's a far cry from Diety! Nathan, IIRC, played Emperor and did as well if not better than I did on Monarch.

As for unit counts... I used ~10 swordsmen on Babylon, ~50 Knights on Germany, ~50-60 Knights on Mongolia (depending on casualties & reinforcements), ~60 Cavalry to finish Mongolia, take America and take Japan. The attack on the Vikings used a few galleon loads of Cavalry with some muskets, so call that 20. The attack on Arabia started with Cavalry, Infantry & Artillery. I really don't have a sense for how many... maybe 35 Cavalry, 10 infantry, 8 artillery (all guesses). A turn before the end, I brought 4 shiny new Tanks to bear, and had several transport loads on the way, plus airports being completed all over the place. I actually had about 125 Tanks at the time.

-Arrian

edit: I also had lots of defenders (as noted earlier in the thread), since I really like to be able to move at least 1 defender into a captured city the turn I take it. If I didn't have enough, I would often rushbuy defenders in cities near the front (recently captured towns). The line of defenders would keep moving, rolling in behind the attackers. This meant that eventually, when I consolidated my gains, I had enough defenders to put 1 each in every coastal town, 2 each in towns bordering Zululand, have a line of 5 on the mountains between Zululand & I in the south, and stll have a fair number left over that I could use in intercontinental invasions.

	17-04-2003 20:46									#292
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Korea was destined to prevail on the England/Korea/Random island. It had a better starting position terrain-wise, and was had a more central capital than either of the other two civs.

Ah, I should have checked. Still, I really do think that the Commercial trait, particularly in combo with Scientific, really helps the AI.

quote: Good game Arrian, and thanks for the closing thoughts (the best part, for me at least!). Dominae

Thanks, and no problem. I wish I had more insightful things to say, but that's the best I could do.

-Arrian

	17-04-2003 20:47									#293
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Arrian: Great game. Lovely to look at your map and warmongering ways, and I love Grog in his tank.

BigD: Your war with Japan is very typical when attacking and AI with outdated units. Hell send his whole offensive army to try and destroy/retake cities, but once that army (70+ you say?) is dead, he's just getting what he builds each turn. So if you can defeat the 70+ SOD (and if it's Cavalry v. infantry or course you can) then it's just a matter of rolling over his units with tanks.

Once when Persia made it to the later rounds against me, they had maybe 50-60 infantry that invaded my terriroy heading for one my my weaker cities (I had MAs). I surrounded his troops at the chokepoint so that he couldn't retreat or move forward (his infantry didn't want to try and attack my MIs) and pounded them with 50+ artillery and finished them off with MAs. Took a long time, but after that, Persia no longer posed a threat.

	17-04-2003 21:17									#294
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Thanks, badams! I was pleased to finally give Grog his Tank. He's been waiting for it for so long.

I was also happy to pull off another "first" for me: the 4x elite* Cavalry army. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Cavaliers (who generated leaders 7-10) were brought together as 20hp of 3-move hell-on-hooves. Muwahahaha!

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 18-04-2003 at 01:23

	18-04-2003 22:49									#295
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Hi everybody...

Well my war against the Mongols is just about to start up. I accidentally renewed a deal for another 20 turns with them instead of cancelling it. Oops! So now I'm gonna try to use some espionage to have them declare war on me instead. Probably better that way anyways.

I've tried to make the attached screenshot as helpful as possible to show you my planned war. Okay now:

#1-39 MA. I'm using my RoP with the English as a staging point to advance into Mongol territory.

#2-1 transport loaded with tanks/MA, 6 battleships, 2 destroyers. It's my northern fleet. I'm gonna use it to take out the island cities. You'll also notice part of my southern fleet I pulled up for the war. I'm gonna send them north once the war begins to pick of Mongol ships.

#3-2 MI guarding 7 artillery each. I'm gonna bombard the crap out of the two isolated Mongol cities and then take them with my cavalry if possible. I'm hoping using the art to redline defenders will give my cav something to do. And because most of my leftover cav is elite I'm hoping for a leader or two.

#4-My re-enforcements. 10 MA and a like number of elite tanks. Once I take Munich from the Mongols they are gonna spill in and take out straglers.

I also have a force of MI ready to rush in to a)stop the counter-offensive and b)hold the taken cities.

As for the arrows. Pretty simple. Yellow is stage 1. Blue is stage 2. Green is stage 3.

Well that's about it. I'll keep everyone up to date.

BigD

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	18-04-2003 22:53									#296
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hi everybody...

Well hopefully this is a good sign the Civ Gods are with me today. First try at putting a spy in.

BigD

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	18-04-2003 23:09									#297
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Looks like it's time to kick ass, BD.

One thing: it sounds like you have ~45 MA total. Why so few? You have 10,000 gold in the bank! You can easily afford a bigger military... hell, you could rush a large number of units with that much money! More attacking power = shorter war & lower casualties.

You're gonna win, it's just that with more units you'd win easier, and be able to then take on Japan.

-Arrian

	18-04-2003 23:21									#298
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Hi everybody...

Well here's a screen from the first turn. I managed to take 4 cities pretty quickly. I'm poised to take another as well. Ta-tu was a pain in the butt to take. It had to pour a lot of units into it to take it. I could have waited for my artillery to come up or reposition my planes but I wanted it now! I only lost 2 MA and had about 6 or 7 retreat. I guess that's not too bad considering I was attacking a size 23 city heavily defended.

My casualties so far are 3 MA, 2 MI, and 4 cavalry. I also have gained 2 artillery pieces from the Mongols. That was nice of them to leave me presents when the fled the city. The Mongols have lost 11 infantry, 5 riflemen, 3 cavalry, and 2 artillery.

My big fear is that Tokugawa is gonna sneak attack me while I'm at war with the Mongols. He now has tanks and that kind of scares me. I'm hoping that I hit him hard enough in our last war to keep him on his side of our borders. My next goal after this war is taking Japans last source of oil. I managed to take 2 away from him in the last war. Thought I had them all but I overlooked one.

BigD

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	18-04-2003 23:25									#299
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Arrian...

Actually I'm about to spend a large chunk of that change. I still have a lot of my captured cities from the Japan war that don't even have courthouses, temples, libraries, and stuff yet. Gonna spend some money on getting them a little bit productive.

I probably could have built up a little more but I wanted to hit them now. I just feel a little bit of a bloodlust today. I am turning out about 5 or 6 MA a turn from my core cities. I'm still a very novice warmonger. I have much to learn yet. To me 45 MA is a lot. I couldn't imagine having 100+ at my disposal. Actually that sounds like fun.

BigD

	18-04-2003 23:36									#300
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BD,

You will learn, grasshopper. I once had 225 MA... on a STANDARD MAP. Silly thing is, I never unleashed that force (I did use MA in that game briefly, but it was a small number against a very weak foe... fighting me with riflemen).

-Arrian