22-03-2003 04:39									#61
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You're no fun.

thankfully, You're no Fun either.

	22-03-2003 04:40									#62
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Social democrats are boring?

	22-03-2003 04:42									#63
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oh, you mean Social Fascists?

	22-03-2003 04:42									#64
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Nope

	22-03-2003 04:44									#65
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damn, I am cornered.

Well, I am rather ambivalent to you, guys.

	22-03-2003 04:45									#66
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our two avatars are funny in combination

	22-03-2003 04:52									#67
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My guy is more handsome than your guy.

	22-03-2003 04:54									#68
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Your guy?

	22-03-2003 04:58									#69
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If you've got a problem with me dating Dr. Evil, just say it.

	22-03-2003 05:00									#70
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I'm just jealous.

	22-03-2003 05:04									#71
	Put an end to popups!

You still can date the shemale on your avatar.

	22-03-2003 05:06									#72
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Care for a menage a quatre?

	22-03-2003 05:08									#73
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sorry, I am not into chicks with dicks.
I am not into guys with dicks either, but that's a whole new thread.

	22-03-2003 05:14									#74
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I was actually suggesting an intensive secion of vacuum cleaning, but your dirty mind...

	22-03-2003 05:15									#75
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That's me.

	22-03-2003 05:18									#76
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm leaning towards a system that is mixed centralized and syndicality. Workers control the means of production, but we elect boards to determine macro questions of production while the workers deal with the micro questions.

Wow, unbelievable, but I must say I agree fullheartedly with this. I've had just this in mind for years, to be truthful.

I have actually laid out a diagram on how this very system will work, with the various bureaus and who they are responsible for, their names, etc. I have also designated a role for the Communist Party, albeit not a very powerful one; decided how the military is funded and who decides where these funds are allocated, amongst other things.(Yeah, I was bored one Monday night.)

P.S. This is Propaganda. My former self got restricted by Ming.

	22-03-2003 05:47									#78
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Nice screenname, Propaganda

	22-03-2003 06:28									#79
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In my form of socialism there is worker control of the large industries; each worker gets the same amount of stock in a corperation. A business my remain private as long as it doesn't become a corperation. Basically my idea is that a business should be controled from the ground-up, not the top-down.

	22-03-2003 06:45									#80
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Odin, your idea of redistributing stock to the workers on the basis of equality is one I agree with. That is exactly what I want, but where our agreement ends is on the basis of centralization and corporatism. I would prefer large monopoly corporations controlled by workers to some extent, but influence still exterted from the top(through democracy), such as long-term planning(Hooray for the 5-year Plan!) and price controls. I feel the corporations must be state-owned, but worker controlled. The workers would pay rent for the use of facilities and capital to the state, as a tax.

I shall end here, because it would take too long to draw out the big picture(i.e. clashing interests in other sects and how they are to be solved, etc.) here.

	22-03-2003 13:32									#81
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bump for later use.

	22-03-2003 14:51									#82
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I'm a bit late here, but...
I've always defined socialism a system where the goverment, a dictator and his/her small cabinet, have a maximum control of it's people to ensure the efficiency and "justice for all" (Hitler, Kruschsev, Castro, Hussein), while communism is a system where people are the goverment. Am I wrong?

Last edited by VJ on 22-03-2003 at 14:57

	22-03-2003 14:54									#83
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quote: Under such a decentralized, what's it's name... "Syndicalist" way, what would prevent these companies from screwing the people, except the fact that they're controlled by workers, and workers would obviously never do that to each other.

What specifically are you thinking about?

	22-03-2003 15:08									#84
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quote: What specifically are you thinking about?

product speculation, harmful bussiness practices, all the bad things about big bussiness' relation to the consumer.

	22-03-2003 15:20									#85
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Well, for instance, businesses would be more locally oriented due to their de-centralization, and since it's easier for consumers to take actions against local business, these businesses would have a greater responsibility to their community.

	22-03-2003 15:33									#86
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Erm, how would a "localized" biotech company, computer manufacturer, or Auto producer work?

How would we prevent those Workers' Syndicates from screwing over, and bribing government officials for contracts?

	22-03-2003 15:49									#87
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Marx once wrote that in democratic societies where the state had not fully formed (the US, the UK and the Netherlands were specifically listed--but that day is long gone) it might be possible to achieve socialism by parliamentary means. It would be more accurate to say we believe in forceful revolution. Hopefully it will be forceful enough that the counter-revolutionary elements will be deterred from using violence.

I will have to agree with Chairman Che in that parliamentary means would be more effective toward communistic ideal's. However, The fact that Marx promotes violence should not be ignored. "Forceful" revolution would be seen as violent means by those who are not eduacted in communistic idealism. I personally belive that America could adopt more socialist policies if our "elected" officials would advocate our honest opinions.

Marx did promote democratic societies, but due to current trends, "Democracy" tends to be dominated by a more oligarchy-style government than a REA: democracy.

	22-03-2003 16:21									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu I'm a bit late here, but... I've always defined socialism a system where the goverment, a dictator and his/her small cabinet, have a maximum control of it's people to ensure the efficiency and "justice for all" (Hitler, Kruschsev, Castro, Hussein), while communism is a system where people are the goverment. Am I wrong?

There has been nearly no trace of socialism in Hitler's regime, because he didn't overthrow capitalism, an it wasn't his intend (at least, not his primary intend, by far).
For Kruschev and Castro, you are right. Despite being an undemocratic and bloody form of socialism, it still was. Socialism isn't doomed of being a dictatorship, but that implies the socialist countries overcome the lack of democracy that was necessary during the revolution.

	22-03-2003 16:22									#89
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Since hitler kept all of the industries safely in corporate/private hands, I hardly see him as a socialist.

	22-03-2003 16:38									#90
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quote: Since hitler kept all of the industries safely in corporate/private hands, I hardly see him as a socialist.

I ment that people which said that there were similarities with Hitler and socialism weren't as wrong as when claiming that there were simlilarities with Hitler and communism...