23-03-2003 08:24									#31
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War ended slavery? Slavery began its decline well before the Civil War. The United States was rather late on that one.

And Communism was never ended, because it never (at least on a large scale) began. The "communist" regimes out there are just dictatorships with a command economy, and that is not what Marx's idea of communism was.

	23-03-2003 08:30									#32
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I see our leftists and socialists are coming out of the clockwork to chime in...

I seriously do not see how you can possibly contend that communism is alive and well. Cuba and North Korea are in desperate squalor, China is busy jumping ship to Capitalism, and Southeast Asia is doing similarly.

	23-03-2003 08:53									#33
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Giving war credit for ending slavery makes very little sense. If blacks were free in the US, why would there be a need for a Martin Luther King?

	23-03-2003 09:26									#34
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Conscription meets the definition of slavery quite well, yes.

	23-03-2003 10:20									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda I see our leftists and socialists are coming out of the clockwork to chime in... I seriously do not see how you can possibly contend that communism is alive and well. Cuba and North Korea are in desperate squalor, China is busy jumping ship to Capitalism, and Southeast Asia is doing similarly.

Even so, war didn't end communism. Actual wars fought against communism were stalemates/failures: Korea and Vietnam.

It was peace that killed communism, actually.

	23-03-2003 10:27									#36
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That's silly?

I just had a conversation with my wife in which she kept referring to the terrorist attacks of 7-11, despite the funny looks I gave her.

	23-03-2003 12:08									#37
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Maybe she wanted a Slurpie!

	23-03-2003 12:14									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda I see our leftists and socialists are coming out of the clockwork to chime in... I seriously do not see how you can possibly contend that communism is alive and well. Cuba and North Korea are in desperate squalor, China is busy jumping ship to Capitalism, and Southeast Asia is doing similarly.

Are you responding to me? I said that Communism never existed, not that it wasn't defeated.

	23-03-2003 13:16									#39
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David is just silly

Do you expect a mother to try to explain the complicated geo-political situation in the world to a 6 year old? Or whatever age she is.

The truth is probably that her daddy couldn't find a good paying job, so is killing people for a living

	23-03-2003 22:56									#40
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id rather the parent say we are forcibly enforcing our ideals on other people rather than defending our ideals.

	23-03-2003 23:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda I see our leftists and socialists are coming out of the clockwork to chime in... I seriously do not see how you can possibly contend that communism is alive and well. Cuba and North Korea are in desperate squalor, China is busy jumping ship to Capitalism, and Southeast Asia is doing similarly.

According to Marxist theory, those aren't Communist states. It was his contention that Communism would arise from within industrial states, not agrarian ones.

	23-03-2003 23:42									#42
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and eventually the U.S. will be communist. It may take 100 years though.

	23-03-2003 23:46									#43
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I agree with the thread title. So far this thread has been silly.

	24-03-2003 00:28									#44
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Giving war credit for ending slavery makes very little sense. If blacks were free in the US, why would there be a need for a Martin Luther King?

...uhmmm...actually war helped freeing the slaves...just not the way, everybody think it did:

During the American Civil War, the....uhmmm...always forget what they called each other....Union (?) set slaves more or less "free" so the ex-slaves could join the war as soldiers, and the suvivors could then live slave-free for the rest of their life...

...or so I've heard...

That means, in some way, the war set some slaves free

	24-03-2003 00:48									#45
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the slaves were free. They just lacked some civil rights that the rest of the population had.

but other minorities lacked civil rights as well- so you can't say it was because of slavery. Just you run of the mill racism

	24-03-2003 01:03									#46
	Re: This Is Just Silly Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So, I saw some news clip the other day of a mother explaining to her daughter that daddy was in Iraq "defending the Constitution." Now come on. Defending the Constitution? Oh, this must be sorta like the people who claim that WW1, for example, or Korea, were about defending the United States. Do people seriously believe this, or are they just too hyped up on nationalism/patriotism to think? And no, this thread isn't about bashing the current war. No, naturally I don't support it, but what I'm *****ing about here is the fact that people use patriotic slogans that have no bearing in truth and absolutely no accuracy. And even worse, they're teaching this stuff to children. /

It´s just the Propaganda in the media.
Some people just believe all the things they are fed by the media TV and/or newspaper.

It´s just as ridiculous as those appeals not to buy anything from countries/companies who don´t support the war (and not to hear songs or watch the movies from Singers/actors which are against the war).

As a sidenote:
I wonder if those people who make these appeals know, how much they resemble the propaganda of the National socialists in the third reich? (there it was: "Kauft nicht bei Juden" ["don´t buy anything from jews"] )

	24-03-2003 01:12									#47
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the media never said we were defending the consitution!!

I can't believe you guys think the media feeds propaganda. In fact I think they are hurting the U.S. war effort and are making the U.S. look bad. But they have a right to report.

So stop blaming the media or the goverment for this dumb mother!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is dumb and stupid by her own making, not the media's.

	24-03-2003 06:20									#48
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I'm not blaming the media for the mother's stupidity, I'm blaming the mother. If anything, I applaud the media for ****ing giving me a good laugh.

	24-03-2003 06:41									#49
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quote: During the American Civil War, the....uhmmm...always forget what they called each other....Union (?) set slaves more or less "free" so the ex-slaves could join the war as soldiers, and the suvivors could then live slave-free for the rest of their life...

First off, it is more accurate to say that slavery ended worldwide starting with the British abolition bills, eventually resulting in the total abolishment of slavery in the British Empire, finished well before the civil war began. The civil war affected the US only.

In the US, how different is the sitaution after slavery if you can hire black people cheap, at far lower wages than white people after the civil war in the South? Not much at all. You might not call them slaves, but they still are not free.

This is the big difference between the Emacipation Proclamation and the abolition bills, in that the abolition bills set the black man on an equal footing.

	24-03-2003 07:08									#50
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switching through radio stations today I heard people complaining about protesters not supporting the troops who are "protecting their freedom."
wtf?

	24-03-2003 07:13									#51
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So, I saw some news clip the other day of a mother explaining to her daughter that daddy was in Iraq "defending the Constitution." Now come on. Defending the Constitution? Oh, this must be sorta like the people who claim that WW1, for example, or Korea, were about defending the United States. Do people seriously believe this, or are they just too hyped up on nationalism/patriotism to think? And no, this thread isn't about bashing the current war. No, naturally I don't support it, but what I'm *****ing about here is the fact that people use patriotic slogans that have no bearing in truth and absolutely no accuracy. And even worse, they're teaching this stuff to children. /

SSDD


Lemme see. Was it New England area that teacher's caught hell for telling students of military members, that their parents were bad?


SSDD

	24-03-2003 07:33									#52
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Every time a child asks me something about the world affairs, I don't try to relieve him/her as if there was some pure good against some pure evil. I insist war, and world affairs in general always have some extent of egoism.
They may not understand anything, but they like that I treat them with respect rather than dismissing their questions with simplistic answers.

On topic : This mother is really silly. I mourn for her child, or rather for her chances to lose the ability to criticize in the future... It is very dangerous to teach jingosim and veneration of the rulers to Children.

	24-03-2003 07:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident and eventually the U.S. will be communist. It may take 100 years though.

You need to lay off the peyote buttons, Diss.

	24-03-2003 07:50									#54
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What I do not understand, is why some people think I am unpatriotic just because I'm not dumb enough to believe in the propaganda of the Bush administration.

	24-03-2003 08:12									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun What I do not understand, is why some people think I am unpatriotic just because I'm not dumb enough to believe in the propaganda of the Bush administration.

Because believeing in propaganda is expected from people in time of war. It is another way to support the effort of war, and thus to support your fatherland.

Edit : I am serious : the confusion between supporting your country and supporting you government is big during a time of war (nothing new here). And the confusion between supporting your government and trusting his propaganda is big as well. Propaganda tries hard to maintain this confusion.

	24-03-2003 17:34									#56
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quote: Was it New England area that teacher's caught hell for telling students of military members, that their parents were bad?

That was a Faux News/Washington Moonie Times fabrication.

	24-03-2003 17:38									#57
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DV: slavery existed in brazil even after the american civil war. and do not get me started on the way emancipation act was proclaimed....

	24-03-2003 18:18									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I agree with the thread title. So far this thread has been silly.

Hmm trying to provoke you 1000th flame again donidoc?