26-03-2003 11:11									#31
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat There's a couple of really big problems here - the US is not involving Iraqi expatriates, exiles and opposition figures to any degree at all

I'm not sure this is entirely correct. I've seen a news story on CNN about an Iraqi man who fled Iraq in the early 80s and is now a successful business man in California with several kids and a wife (also from Iraq).

The State Department selected him, among many others, to help rebuild Iraq once the war is over (he's an engineer). They agreed to move there, since the US government would incur all the costs of the move.

	26-03-2003 11:13									#32
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I would like to have gone in as a UN coalition. Short of that, I don't think setting the precedent of first strike is good for world peace or peace in the US.

I had plans to go to the mediteranean this fall but don't think I want to put up with the antiamericanism. It seems to me I am less safe around the world than I was 6 months ago. Unless we find a big cache of WoMD and a big I told you so to the UN, our image is tarnished for at least a generation.

	26-03-2003 11:20									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm not sure this is entirely correct. I've seen a news story on CNN about an Iraqi man who fled Iraq in the early 80s and is now a successful business man in California with several kids and a wife (also from Iraq). The State Department selected him, among many others, to help rebuild Iraq once the war is over (he's an engineer). They agreed to move there, since the US government would incur all the costs of the move.

I'm talking about political leadership and establishing connections with the traditional tribal and clan leaders in the Sunni north. They're hanging out with the Kurds, and basically chilled out of the action, on every level.

I'm talking the equivalent of bringing in the Iraqi versions of Hamid Karzai, but lots of them, all over the political spectrum, to have them get the message to the Iraqi people, not a bunch of USAF leaflet writers and translaters.

	26-03-2003 11:22									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Frogman I would like to have gone in as a UN coalition. Short of that, I don't think setting the precedent of first strike is good for world peace or peace in the US. I had plans to go to the mediteranean this fall but don't think I want to put up with the antiamericanism. It seems to me I am less safe around the world than I was 6 months ago. Unless we find a big cache of WoMD and a big I told you so to the UN, our image is tarnished for at least a generation.

Sew a Canadian flag to your backpack like every other American who's afraid of his country's reputation.

	26-03-2003 11:28									#35
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that doesn't help if you live in the U.S. and you die from a terrorist attack

	26-03-2003 11:30									#36
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According to my brother, if you saw a bag with a Canadian flag sewn to it in Europe then chances were better than even that it belonged to an American...

	26-03-2003 11:32									#37
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can you blame them?

Canada is just plain cool

Jon Miller

	26-03-2003 11:34									#38
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Too damn cool.

But it was nice today. The snow's basically gone, but there's still a bit left.

	26-03-2003 11:37									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident that doesn't help if you live in the U.S. and you die from a terrorist attack

Develop stealth nation technology like we have.

It's very simple. Keep telling everybody else what to do, but stop invading them when they don't listen.

	26-03-2003 11:38									#40
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When I went to Europe with my American school, the lines we needed to stand in as Canadians for customs took far longer than the American customs lines. Out of the 18 kids on the trip, me and this other girl were the only Canadians, and we took forever to get through those lines.

Always perplexed me.

	26-03-2003 12:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Too damn cool. But it was nice today. The snow's basically gone, but there's still a bit left.

It snowed here today.

And yes, I am slightly taken aback by events. I did not think the Iraqi Army would fight for Saddam the way they appear to be doing. I was a bit concerned right off when the war was launched on the ground at the same time as from the air. I had assumed that the Iraqi's would be hit out in the open, from the air, somewhat like they were the last go round, before the ground pounders entered in seriousness.

Damn, this thing is a mess already. HTH do they finish it now, cleanly? Especially with news coming up that will drive Americans into a froth.

I guess there will be no clean end, short of a miracle.

	26-03-2003 12:03									#42
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What news?

	26-03-2003 12:04									#43
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Executed prisoners.

	26-03-2003 12:06									#44
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That's the way CNN is angling. They are not out in full froth yet. I think they are wondering if it could be true, or just what effect it will have if it is...

	26-03-2003 12:06									#45
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Is that for sure yet?

So far all I've heard is that a couple of the KIAs appeared to have bullet holes in their foreheads. (Haven't seen the vid of the bodies, so I don't know)

Not that I really think executing POWs would be beyond Saddam or his thugs.

	26-03-2003 12:10									#46
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The announcer was saying he could see the pictures, but could not show them.

I am not sure yet, wth it means. I would say though, that I can guess the reaction of Americans and American forces if it is true.

	26-03-2003 12:19									#47
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BTW, I'm not at all surprised by the resistance so far. It's fairly light and disorganised.

I would have been very surprised had this played out like GW1

Anybody short of comatose would have learned then when you fight the Americans you don't mass your troops in open desert. Plus the US wasn't willing to wait during the month of bombardment it would take to really **** up the Iraqis. And the invasion is almost entirely out of Kuwait (limited front) and up the river valleys to Baghdad.

Now add that onto how fast they want to move and the fact that they've got half as many troops as last time and an Iraq which has decided to only defend the Baghdad-Basra axis and you see that they're going to have to stretch a little bit.

So far the war's going well, but I want to know what happens when they hit Baghdad. Everything else is just foreplay.

It's all well and good to talk about laying siege to the city, but if you don't actually go in then people will be eating the dead in a month's time. Whatever food's left will go to the army and **** the populace. And that's exactly the sort of thing which would really **** the US up.

	26-03-2003 14:08									#48
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well, rallying around the flag goes both ways, so iraqis are rallying around their leader just like democrats rallied around bush post 9/11 and serbs rallied around milosevic during nato agression

the only thing that surprised me about this war is the resistance given by an arab army in a conflict against superior oponent. they are pass the 7-days mark already...

	26-03-2003 14:11									#49
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's the way CNN is angling. They are not out in full froth yet. I think they are wondering if it could be true, or just what effect it will have if it is...

of course pentagon would say things like that. a bullet hole in the head does not mean one is executed. you really have to have a ballistic expert do an examination and let you know what happened.

	26-03-2003 14:40									#50
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quote: Originally posted by MtG But that didn't matter, because a lot of this, and a lot of dead on both sides, are about some ball-less right wing ideologues like Wolfowitz, Perle and Armitage.

I thought Armitage was Powell's ally and one of the strongest proponents of a massive, Powell-doctrine style military invasion.

	26-03-2003 15:11									#51
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quote: We're going to invade you, break stuff in your country getting rid of that ******* ruler, kill some of you, but we're going to fix everything up for you. By awarding contracts to our companies and paying them with your resources. If the Iraqis have to pay for rebuilding with their oil, then let an Iraqi interim government let those contracts to whoever they want - if it's the French, Russians and Chinese, so be it, if they're paying for it.

This proves the point of the It’s_all_for_oil people. All the we_are_doing_it_for_the _iraqi_people **** means nothing.
My views haven’t changed at all I still think this war is a major mistake of the Bush administration.

	26-03-2003 16:41									#52
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I heard that the coalition is changing the plan. Instead of heading straight for Baghdad, they are going to secure Southern Iraq first.

It's also going to take a while for the 4th Mech Inf. division to get there with all the heavy equipment.

	26-03-2003 18:32									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger My take is they don't like Hussein, but they like invaders even less. That's something I said long ago, but it seems to be true.

Imagine that: your observations match your opinions! What are the odds of that?

	26-03-2003 20:41									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Originally posted by MtG But that didn't matter, because a lot of this, and a lot of dead on both sides, are about some ball-less right wing ideologues like Wolfowitz, Perle and Armitage. I thought Armitage was Powell's ally and one of the strongest proponents of a massive, Powell-doctrine style military invasion.

Armitage has started to see the light, but that was later in the process, not at the beginning of the administration and prior.

	26-03-2003 20:43									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Og This proves the point of the It’s_all_for_oil people. All the we_are_doing_it_for_the _iraqi_people **** means nothing. My views haven’t changed at all I still think this war is a major mistake of the Bush administration.

Looking at the breakdown of the Bush 30-day budget, some portion of it is for emergency repairs and humanitarian aid funded by the US, but those numbers (about 4 billion in all categories, IIRC) aren't sufficient to do much for long.

At least initially, the US will be paying for fixing stuff, but it's not clear at all after that.

	26-03-2003 20:45									#56
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Earlier on, I was pro-UN-war, anti-US-war. It was the UN's Resolution 1441 that was being violated, it was up to the UN to enforce it. Plus, I believe that only the UN can set out a stable post-war government in Baghdad.

But now that the US has grabbed the tiger by the tail, I say we don't dare let go until the tiger is dead.

A pull out now would strengthen Saddam to the point where he could never be toppled, and give him carte blanche to go back to his efforts to develop nuclear weapons.

	26-03-2003 20:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I heard that the coalition is changing the plan. Instead of heading straight for Baghdad, they are going to secure Southern Iraq first. It's also going to take a while for the 4th Mech Inf. division to get there with all the heavy equipment.

4 ID is the last US division to get in country. 1 AD should already be there based on their deployment orders (somebody has to be leading V Corps) although we haven't heard about them, and 1 CD should also have most of it's heavy equipment arriving.

There's either a lot of operational deception going on, because we're hearing nothing about those units or the 101 ABD, OR the whole rolling start nonsense is an even bigger FUBAR than it looks.

The US should have at least milked the UN / inspections game long enough to get all the forces in place before starting.

	26-03-2003 20:49									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler But now that the US has grabbed the tiger by the tail, I say we don't dare let go until the tiger is dead. A pull out now would strengthen Saddam to the point where he could never be toppled, and give him carte blanche to go back to his efforts to develop nuclear weapons.

Not only that, but the repercussions would go so much farther globally that we really don't want to think about it. Like it or not, we've gotten ourselves into a decisive engagement. Now you know how Lee felt at Gettysburg.

	26-03-2003 20:58									#59
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quote: BTW, I'm not at all surprised by the resistance so far.

Neither am I. This was expected by me. I think people are looking at the suprising success of '91 and thinking it'd be the same thing. This is a vastly different war.

	26-03-2003 21:14									#60
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A. Bush's actions do not seem to be rational given the evidence available to the public; Hussein may have all the nukes, smallpox and sarin on earth but if he can't deploy them, he's no threat to us. As for giving them to terrorists, that seems absurd too. Would you give a weapon powerful enough to render an entire country uninhabitable to unreliable, untrackable troops? Hussein does not seem rational, but I find it hard to believe that he has remained in power for several decades by being a fool, and if I were a totalitarian dictator I would definitely be more cautious than that.
B. As for ulterior motives, all the analyses I have read indicate that Bush hasn't a prayer of ending the war and stabilizing the region in time to profit from it in oil contracts within his administration. Waging an apparently irrational and unprovoked war without any benefit to the nation sounds like a sure-fire way of avoiding reelection.
C. Bush doesn't seem to be as sharp as, say, Clinton, but he does not seem so utterly stupid as to move this drastically without considering the consequences. At least, not to me, he doesn't. He also has access to much more information than we do.

Bearing all this in mind, all I will do is hope and pray that the man is working on good judgment. I'm ****ed if I can figure it out, and listening to a few news reports does not make me an expert. That's my opinion, then and now.