27-03-2003 00:34									#61
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Oh yeah -- Mussoulini was a swell guy who liked everyone who was different.

The interesting thing about Italian Fascism is the relative lack of political executions.In the tweny years of his Fascist regime there were only around 400-450 political execution, far, far fewer than those in the Nazi rgime, the Soviet Regime, the Maoist regime, or many other regimes.

	27-03-2003 00:36									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Why do you have problem with mexicans? is it a racial thing?

No, its the fact that they swarm into the country illegaly yet don't seem to want to assimaliate with the culture.

	27-03-2003 00:38									#63
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I disagree with the entirety of the first post, what a suprise.

	27-03-2003 00:41									#64
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nationalist: I can sort of see what do you mean by that, but as long as their general rules of behaviour and personal interaction won't vary from the "American" ones, why would you mind what food do they eat, what music they listen to, and what holidays do they celebrate ( or even what Diety they worship, though I don't believe in gods, god, goddess, or whatever)/

	27-03-2003 00:41									#65
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No surprise here either. You'd probably really hate my socal ideas, as I'm sure that'd I'd disagree with you on everything.

	27-03-2003 00:47									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel nationalist: I can sort of see what do you mean by that, but as long as their general rules of behaviour and personal interaction won't vary from the "American" ones, why would you mind what food do they eat, what music they listen to, and what holidays do they celebrate ( or even what Diety they worship, though I don't believe in gods, god, goddess, or whatever)/

I enjoy Mexican food, and I appreciate their religion (my girlfriend and half my family being Catholic)
My problem, aside from the fact that I hate their ignoring our laws and entering the country illegaly, is their language. I find that my government is forced more and more to accomidate the Spanish language. Some places are now officially bi-lingual. This didn't happen for my German and Slavic anscestors. Why should the Mexicans be treated any differently? I think it shows a disrespect to my country when people come illegally, and then refuse to use the language of the country. As a nation of diverse cultures and ideals the only thing that can possibly hold us together is a shared language. Take away that common bond, and the fabric that holds our nation will be in danger of rupturing.

	27-03-2003 01:03									#67
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Free immigration really is the answer to the world's economic problems, much more so than free trade is. It allows the US' and other developed states' economies to grow, as well as providing remittances to the developing world for people who want to stay here and training for people want to return to their countries to start up new businesses.

As for immigrants speaking the "wrong" language, there have ALWAYS been non-English speaking immigrants. The recent wave of hispanic immigration is not substantially different. It is true that they do immigrate en masse and sometimes create Spanish-speaking enclaves, but this doesn't hurt anyone. Why the hell is it your business what language they speak? Why the hell is it your country any more than theirs? Get off your high horse.

	27-03-2003 01:14									#68
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quote: as well as providing remittances to the developing world for people who want to stay here and training for people want to return to their countries to start up new businesses.

That's pure bull, Ramo. . How many immigrants return to the countries of their origin? a tiny percentage.

	27-03-2003 01:14									#69
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but see. all immegrants are like that

there are just a lot of hispanics

but there were a lot of Irish once upon a time also

Jon Miller

	27-03-2003 01:19									#70
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quote: That's pure bull, Ramo. . How many immigrants return to the countries of their origin? a tiny percentage.

Remittances aren't bull. They make up several times the money that international aid does. They provide very important capital for the third world. And yes, a lot of people return back to their countries of origins. I don't have any numbers on me and don't want to pull any out of my ass, but a suprisingly large amount does.

	27-03-2003 01:20									#71
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quote: Besides, I am not adovcating a complete end to legal immigration. I just think that there should be a moratorium on it until the INS is competent enough to protect the country.

That may take some time.

As for the 2x per capita, I'll see what I can dig up.

"
The proportion of foreign-born Canadians is at its highest in 70 years – though it still does not match the record high levels which prevailed during the first quarter of the last century. Canada's intake of immigrants has represented less than 1% of its total population through the nineties, while it hovered around 5% between 1911 and 1913. Nonetheless, at 18%, Canada's proportion of foreign-born citizens is the second highest in the world, topped only by Australia's 22%. In Toronto, which has received almost half of Canada's newest immigrants, about 44% of the population was born outside Canada.
"

http://www.ccsd.ca/pr/2003/diversity.htm


"
Since 1970, the foreign-born population of the United States has increased rapidly due to large-scale immigration, primarily from Latin America and Asia. The foreign-born population rose from 9.6 million in 1970 to 14.1 million in 1980 and to 19.8 million in 1990. The estimated foreign-born population in 1997 was 25.8 million. As a percentage of the total population, the foreign-born population increased from 4.7 percent in 1970 to 6.2 percent in 1980, to 7.9 percent in 1990, and to an estimated 9.7 percent in 1997.2"

http://www.census.gov/population/ww...9/twps0029.html

So not quite 2x, Canada having 18% foreign born, and the US having 9.7% foreign born.

	27-03-2003 01:25									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Free immigration really is the answer to the world's economic problems, much more so than free trade is. It allows the US' and other developed states' economies to grow, as well as providing remittances to the developing world for people who want to stay here and training for people want to return to their countries to start up new businesses.

B.S. This would merely bring the standard of living in the developing world down to a third world level, especially if the Libertarian ideal of "no minimum" wage is implemented.

quote: As for immigrants speaking the "wrong" language, there have ALWAYS been non-English speaking immigrants.

Yet we haven't always had semi-official bi-lingualism. Older immigrants forced their children to learn English and assimilate into the culture. Now we bend over backwards to accomidate people who don't want to learn the language.

quote: The recent wave of hispanic immigration is not substantially different.

It is in the fact that most of it is illegal.

quote: Why the hell is it your business what language they speak?

It is my business if we have to spend millions of dollars making our government bi-lingual. It is if people in the cities can't effectively read road signs, public postings, etc., and become a danger to the community. It is if a particualr language group beginjs to split off and dominate certain parts of my nation.

quote: Why the hell is it your country any more than theirs?

Well, because some of my anscestors conquered it hundreds of years ago, I was born here, and I pay taxes here. These illegal immigrants violate the sovereignty of the nation's borders and, obviously unregistered, don't pay taxes. Yet these illegals are crying out for public assistance, use public goods, and are causing many problems in our urban centers through gang violence. They are freeloaders and invaders.

When my anscestors came "illegaly" into America, they conquered it and made it their own. The immigrants can try and do this, conquering the land through settlement. However, certain people will stand against the violation of our borders and their national sovereignty.

	27-03-2003 01:28									#73
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quote: Remittances aren't bull. They make up several times the money that international aid does.

That doesn't speak much of international aid.

quote: They provide very important capital for the third world. And yes, a lot of people return back to their countries of origins. I don't have any numbers on me and don't want to pull any out of my ass, but a suprisingly large amount does.

I don't have any number either. What I do have is the stories of the people I know, and stories from the community, generally.

I will not discuss the immigration from the former SU to Israel, it's a separate, and quite a special issue. I will discuss the russian immigrants to the US. I have yet to see anyone to return from the US to the boundaries of the former SU. and frankly, why should they?

Of course, the former SU has it ok with educational facilities, and such, so it can "re-fill" its' ranks to some extent, but in "real" 3rd world countries, if the skilled people will have the opportunity to freely immigrate to the western world with their entire families, why shouldn't they? This of course will lead to rock-bottom countries having no skilled labor, no matter what amount do they invest in education, and constant poverty.

	27-03-2003 01:29									#74
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Since 1970, the foreign-born population of the United States has increased rapidly due to large-scale immigration, primarily from Latin America and Asia. The foreign-born population rose from 9.6 million in 1970 to 14.1 million in 1980 and to 19.8 million in 1990. The estimated foreign-born population in 1997 was 25.8 million. As a percentage of the total population, the foreign-born population increased from 4.7 percent in 1970 to 6.2 percent in 1980, to 7.9 percent in 1990, and to an estimated 9.7 percent in 1997.2" http://www.census.gov/population/ww...9/twps0029.html

This is from before the 2000 census.I'm going to look and see what I can find for more up to date info. I still wonder if this counts illegal immigration though.

	27-03-2003 01:38									#75
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http://factfinder.census.gov/servle..._QTP14&_lang=en

This is a table from the 2000 census, showing an 11% foreign born population. This figure does not count illegal immigrants, because they didn't participate in the census. 16 million out of the 31.7 million foreign born are from Latin America, without counting the illegals.

	27-03-2003 01:43									#76
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This website estimates that 7 million illegal immigrants entered the U.S. in the 90s, with 69% of them coming from Mexico.

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0...05%257E,00.html

This is a very interesting article detailing some of the problems that I have been talking about.

	27-03-2003 01:47									#77
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nationalist:

Do you really describe yourself as a fascist? Because I didn't get that from your original post at all. Rather I would describe you by your username, which doesn't equate to fascism IMO. Your views seem consistent with the Old Right rather than today's neoconservatism because of your producerism and anti-imperialism stances.

	27-03-2003 01:47									#78
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If you add in 7 million illegal immigrants, you get a foreign born population of around 13.1% for the U.S.

	27-03-2003 01:51									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Jules nationalist: Do you really describe yourself as a fascist? Because I didn't get that from your original post at all. Rather I would describe you by your username, which doesn't equate to fascism IMO. Your views seem consistent with the Old Right rather than today's neoconservatism because of your producerism and anti-imperialism stances.

You're partially right about that. However, most people don't understand the difference. I am a Nationalist,something that most people equate to a fascist, especially in America, where people simply equate right with Republicans. I am most definately not a Republican, and most Americans don't know what a Nationalist is. I am very "conservative" or right wing on social issues. However, I am a supporter of labor and unions and am moderately left on economic issues. Overall, my beliefs are more authoritarian than the "Old Conservatives", and I completely oppose the old view about the benefits of a laissez-faire market. I am pretty far right socially, and moderately left economically. I call that position as being a Nationalst, some call it Fascist, others Populist (although people call Michael Moore a Populist, and we definately disagree)

	27-03-2003 01:52									#80
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I had to do research for work once (credit card research) that Mexicans here in the states send approx. $8 billion annually back to their families in Mexico.

	27-03-2003 02:02									#81
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quote: If you add in 7 million illegal immigrants, you get a foreign born population of around 13.1% for the U.S.

nationalist:

Still nowhere near Canada at 18% legal immigration, since we get plenty of illegal refugees. Definitely less than the US, since the majority of your illegal refugees cross the land border into the US.

Besides, you are not calling to restrict only illegal immigration, but also legal immigration as well.

Also, you have to remember, that if Canada were to close borders, we would have a shrinking labour force, similar to that already seen in Germany and many parts of Europe. How is it beneficial for those who are left, if there are not enough workers to sustain the businesses?

Sure, I agree with your stance that free trade can harm workers, but look at the alternative. If you erect barriers, you will decrease the productivity of American workers. This is why the US should implement free trade with respect to lumber, to provide an incentive for American companies to upgrade their mills.

If the US does not use tariffs to improve the productivity of protected industries, then they will fall farther and farther behind the rest of the world.

	27-03-2003 02:05									#82
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Besides, you are not calling to restrict only illegal immigration, but also legal immigration as well.

We should only restrict legal immigration until we get our incompetent INS back on track. (Read my first part about giving visas to terrorists). After that, we can resume legal immigration and asylum.

	27-03-2003 02:16									#83
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Wouldn't deporting millions be more costly than assimilating them? I'd much rather offer amnesty to these "illegals" and integrate them into American society. They no doubt have the work ethic and they went through a lot to get here. IMO, these people appreciate freedom and hard-work more than most Americans. After the US stopped Prohibition, it didn't go around punishing all the people that were violating the law. And the legalization didn't reward them for their "then-illegal" activity. IMO, these "illegal aliens" are made criminals because of the US's own ineptitude to handle its immigration.

Instead of closing the borders, I'd open them and use the government's resources to regulate immigration. I think it will be harder to keep people out and deporting "illegals" rather than keeping track of who's coming in.

And Floyd, where did your perception of public education come from? The US government doesn't have an office of propaganda that controls what is taught in public schools. The government simply funds the schools. And in a Democracy... (this may come to a surprise to you) the people control the government. Local school districts are under the control of the people who live in the districts. George Bush doesn't mandate what's taught across the nation.

	27-03-2003 02:22									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Wouldn't deporting millions be more costly than assimilating them? I'd much rather offer amnesty to these "illegals" and integrate them into American society.

the problem is that many of these people don't want to be assimilated, they just sneak up for work. Couldn't care less about the country themselves. However, granting them citizenship means that we'd then have to start paying them things such as welfare and social security. We'd be rewarding them for breaking our laws and violating sovereignty. Amnesty grants only encourage more illegal immigrants to come over, and with things as they are now there would be nothing that we could do to stop it from happening.

	27-03-2003 02:29									#85
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Who said anything about citizenship? And with 3 million+ illegals in the US, how do you propose to deport them? Do you have any idea how much that would cost? Do you think all of these 3 million will come peacefully? Do you know what ethnic cleansing is? Didn't we accuse another country of doing the same thing? DIdn't we bomb them?

	27-03-2003 02:31									#86
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quote: We should only restrict legal immigration until we get our incompetent INS back on track. (Read my first part about giving visas to terrorists). After that, we can resume legal immigration and asylum.

At what point will the INS receive a sufficient passing grade? Surely they cannot keep out all terrorists, for in discarding potential terrorists, you will refuse a great deal of more valuable immigrants.

	27-03-2003 02:33									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Sava And with 3 million+ illegals in the US, how do you propose to deport them? Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

Probably less than the $78 billion that we are wasting on this war.

quote: Do you think all of these 3 million will come peacefully?

I don't care. Do all criminals turn themselves in peacefully? If they forcefully resist, then they prove even further that they don't respect American authority and don't deserve to be here.

quote: Do you know what ethnic cleansing is?

How is this ethnic cleansing. If a Brit is here illegaly, send him home.

	27-03-2003 02:35									#88
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 At what point will the INS receive a sufficient passing grade? Surely they cannot keep out all terrorists, for in discarding potential terrorists, you will refuse a great deal of more valuable immigrants.

The exact details would have to be worked out, but I'd say that it would have to develop a system in which it can find the whereabouts of any foreign guest without too much trouble.

	27-03-2003 02:46									#89
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Despite how you rationalize it to yourself, nationalist, it will be perceived as ethinic cleansing. There are probably over a million illegal hispanics. So is the army going to go into neighborhoods and rounding people up? How do you prove somebody is illegal or not? What about if this illegal immigrant has children born in the US? What if there is a large family, how do you choose who to deport if some are legal immigrants?

And personally, I don't think we should be turning America into a battlefield just to fight resisting illegal immigrants. If illegals fight back and are killed, how do you justify their deaths? Does illegal immigration warrant a death sentence?

Nationalist... you can't deport all illegal aliens. You might as well deal with them because they're here. And how do you justify saying that amnesty would encourage illegal immigration. The front door of the US reads "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yurning to be free..." Don't you think that is what encourages people to come to the US?

	27-03-2003 02:56									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Despite how you rationalize it to yourself, nationalist, it will be perceived as ethinic cleansing. There are probably over a million illegal hispanics. So is the army going to go into neighborhoods and rounding people up? How do you prove somebody is illegal or not? What about if this illegal immigrant has children born in the US? What if there is a large family, how do you choose who to deport if some are legal immigrants? And personally, I don't think we should be turning America into a battlefield just to fight resisting illegal immigrants. If illegals fight back and are killed, how do you justify their deaths? Does illegal immigration warrant a death sentence? Nationalist... you can't deport all illegal aliens. You might as well deal with them because they're here. And how do you justify saying that amnesty would encourage illegal immigration. The front door of the US reads "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yurning to be free..." Don't you think that is what encourages people to come to the US?