28-03-2003 20:57									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'm not sure if exploiting a flaw should be considered a "bug" which needs to be fixed.

No offense meant - I'm just suggesting to play the game instead of searching for it's weaknesses. Because: You'll always find weaknesses if you search for them, that's in the nature of "things"... especially computer games.

IMHO it's not so important to hinder players from exploiting flaws, like this techtrading one - after all, it IS your descision if you do it or not.

The problem I see, if you change things like that, that you'll screw it and after the fifth revision or something, tech trading becomes meaningless in itself. Why not just let it as it is and let the player decide how honorable his play style shall be?

Last edited by Gelvan on 28-03-2003 at 21:20

	28-03-2003 22:30									#32
	Support Apolyton

That is an excellent point, and I've seen games hurt in exactly that way (even Paradox erred, IMO, with EU2 by making the game eventually challenging even for the hard-core but upping war attrition too high, though they went back and relaxed things a bit).

Rather, what I'm looking for here is for the *AI* to be as clever as the human. No, I don't think the AI can ever be made to be as clever as a human on all issues, no way. But this tech thing is so central to the way money works in the game, on this point I think saying "just don't play it that way" is unrealistic. I say this because all I'm doing is trading tech in an obvious manner.

I think, in fact, the negotiations end of GalCiv needs some work. Not an overhaul, but some work, that's all.

Some ideas for fixes:

* Make sure all civs have universal translator as among their first techs so they can trade.
* If Civ A and B are in contact with each other and I sell Techs X,Y,Z to CivA, when I click over to sell to CivB, either CivA and I should have to try to low-bid each other or CivB will prefer to buy from either one of us depending on our alignment, etc. As it is now, you can just roll down the civs and get full price over and over for whatever tech you happen to have at the moment.

	28-03-2003 23:20									#33
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Gelvan Concerning Random events: they were made to support the feeling that every time you play it, it's a new game.

Yes that is the concept and maybe in this game that will work. It does not work that way for the most part in other games though.
In any event being able to turn it off hurts no one, as you can leave it on if you like it or want a change.

	28-03-2003 23:24									#34
	Tired of ads?

I agree. Random events need to be made an option and/or reworked so that the player can prepare better to some degree ("The unmistakable sounds of Space Sharks is heading our way. Scientists think we'll have 24 months to prepare, and it seems the Space Sharks have more than 300 hitpoints!").

	29-03-2003 00:09									#35
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Lemmy quote: I find it odd that something that Humanity can do NOW we can't do at the start of the game, 175 years in the future. That's not completely true, we can only 'see' the big gas giants now, and who would llike to live on a gas planet And even if we could detect earthlike planets, we'd still have to know about the living conditions on the planet, which is even harder then just seeing them.

Exactly. The only thing the AI gets that the player doesn't is knowledge at the start of the game of what color each of the stars is. It doesn't get any knowledge of the planets circling the stars.

Aside from that, the only cheats the AI gets is a 5% econ bonus at the next-to-highest difficulty level, and a 40% econ bonus at the highest level. If I ever play that well, I'll willingly give it that much of a lead. I'm not even playing on "Normal" yet.

	29-03-2003 00:54									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I agree that the AI should trade techs aggressively, they seem to be too eager to take the easy route and demand free money.

When starting your game, make sure to set your government spending to 100% and military spending to 100% until your 1000bc runs out. Make sure you have around 100b people on planets as a minimum. On the lower class planets, build 1 to 2 colony ships and then switch to constructors.

For better speed, research propulsion tech>>cold fusion>>impulse drive for more speed. Also research artificial gravity>>controlled gravity and buy/build gravity accelerators. Antimatter>>Warp Drive>>Hyperspace will boost it towards the mid-game.

Communications tech>>universal translator>>diplomacy and buying diplomatic translators will go a long way as well to improving your relations. Trade>>interstellar business>>interstellar marketing and buy/build the resturaunt of eternity will boost your influence as will Xeno Propaganda and buy/build the propaganda machine.

Most important of all, find minor races early and trade techs for money. Then boost governmental spending back up to 100% and crank out colony ships/constructors.

	29-03-2003 01:27									#37
	Remove this text

Yep, that's what I've done this last game almost to the letter, adding in my lease experiment (which has yet to play out fully since 'life' gets in the way)!

I think I haven't really reached the mid-game on this one yet, so I'll settle for having to get more tech for space travel. Looks like I've got half to 2/3rds of the techs you mention.

quote: Most important of all, find minor races early and trade techs for money. Then boost governmental spending back up to 100% and crank out colony ships/constructors.

This is part of what I'm trying to decide about the game: Doing this, it's rather easy to cover the lease strategy. In fact, I never dropped my spending below 100% yet! The lease amount goes up, but then I just get my civs on the line and get a bunch of money.

Well, I'll reserve judgement on this until I play out tonight's game.

	29-03-2003 12:58									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

@Yin
I agree with you, rather than let it be, the AI should tech trade faster too. But then everyone has the highest technologies quite early, and this drains the happiness for getting new techs.

Maybe a tech trading restriction would work, let's say you can trade 3 techs per round, full stop. Furthermore this would (maybe?) make it possible to write a subroutine, where the AI is forced to trade 3 techs per round, if he can. Furthermore this number could be changed by the UP.

	29-03-2003 13:08									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

So is there not an option to turn random events off? A way to turn off alignment would be nice too, since I can't really see the reason to have it. Especially since from what i've read your goverments as they advance become more free. So I could change to a goverment that gave even more freedoms and the chance of losing the senate, but i'm evil.

Why can't I kill those oppose me instead? Abolish the senate, they're useless. Send death squads to all those who oppose me. Use troops to quell rebellious planets, etc... I mean the whole thing sounds nice, but the only differences i've heard for the alignments are a few techs and affect on AI relations.

I've also read theres no build individual build queue for planets, only set build queues you assign to planets, which is a pain as well. Surely it can't have been that hard to include a regular build queue could it? But anyway, i'm still waiting for the demo but i'm not liking some of what i've been hearing.

	29-03-2003 23:43									#40
	Got spare money?

I ran into the debacle know as the senate last night and wanted to throw the CD as far as I could.
I wanted to go attack someone and the senate said no.
Hum where have I heard this before (civ2), did I like it then (no way).
Ok then lets change governments to get around this, senate says no, huh.
This alone is a game breaker for me. I am now forced o stay in the lowest form of government or I am not really in control of my own empire.
To tel you the truth, I was not in love with the game before this occurred, but I was still playing.
The game seems to be heavily leaning towards trade and diplomacy, thinks I am not interested in doing.
I do not find it fun to go around to all of the race constantly trying to figue what kind of deal I can make.
It is one of the things I dislike about Civ3, but at least you can accept a handicap and not do it in civ3.
Here if you do not want to trade and gather votes, what is left? You can not design ships, you do not have tactical combat, where is the fun?

	29-03-2003 23:57									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

wow, i have not gotten to the point of declaring war while being a form of gov't that won't let you, but i'm with you...if it is like civ2 where the senate can over ride you, well...that sucks.

	30-03-2003 00:12									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

although, i kinda like the senate idea. Except of course when my party gets voted out and i lose all the bonuses associated with that party.

i wonder why it wouldn't let you switch government, wmx...?

	30-03-2003 01:26									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I ran into the debacle know as the senate last night and wanted to throw the CD as far as I could. I wanted to go attack someone and the senate said no.

I don't know if this applies to you or not but...

In my games, as long as I keep my approval ratings high (55%) and retain control of the senate, I can declare war any time I want. You have to retain control of the senate!

	30-03-2003 01:26									#44
	Put an end to popups!

I don't know. I am thinking of trying to surround their system and try to provoke them.
If that does not work, I will start a new game and no switch to Republic form of government. I understand that Imperialism will not behave that way.

	30-03-2003 01:50									#45
	Support Apolyton

Yin

I play solely on the AI as "Bright"

And trust me..they DO trade techs big time! Maybe too much for me to keep up with. I used the money for techs thing as you did, but on my games they dont bite, the most they ai's are giving me are 100bc for a month or two..and this s for key techs like the Dreadnaught or Battleships.

Also Yin, if your Transports are only moving one unit per turn, im gussing you haven;t gone down the research route that leads to "combat Transport" yet? Or maybe the gravity tech path that potentially adds +3 to all ships pretty early on in the game?

Also i like to add in the +1 movement in my Civ setup, makes me much faster to colonise early on, and my ships have a superiour range.

I have played 6 games, and lost..well 6..lol its certainly a challenge...my last game was the closest..until i realised what a "Terror Star" actually did..needless to say i was not fully prepared for it, all my ships were in his space, but when he used the star on my top 5 $$ producing stars..i resigned..(Yes it does seem he focused his attack on my 3 biggest $$ producers, and then took out my 3 biggest production centres...very impressive )

Just some hints that might make your game a bit more fun!

Last edited by Nirvana_CN on 30-03-2003 at 01:57

	30-03-2003 02:40									#46
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The +1 movement thing did nothing for me. I had to start another game because it was 4 points down the drain.

M

	30-03-2003 04:11									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

@Gelvan:

Yes, something like that might work. I'm telling you (preaching to the choir, I know) that the tech-trading thing needs some tightening up. Thankfully, however, these are 'easily' fixable types of balance issues. Most everything else underlying the trade model is great.

quote: I play solely on the AI as "Bright" And trust me..they DO trade techs big time! Maybe too much for me to keep up with.

Excellent! I just won on Normal and will have a rather +- write-up about it on Monday. Ah, what the heck, I'll keep it simple and leave a fuller review for my games tonight and tomorrow on a higher difficulty.

LIKED:

* Culture victory. Took a while. Became a bit dull after it was clear I was going to win, but still cool. I won 'not by weapons but by ideas.' Nice!
* Starbases as a way to project your influence and provoke nations against you, particularly when the senate won't let you go to war! (Yes, I was frozen out of the senate juuuust as I was ready to attack! But I sucked it up and started starbase-pushing until I won the senate back, though by that time my culture was already full-steam).
* The senate: Yes, it was frustrating not being able to declare war, but it forced me to balance my approval rating and think of alternative ways to execute my plans!
* Civs ask you for help ... and seem to really use the help you give them.
* The techs never seem pointeless. This one is huge! Every tech (well, virtually) has some really cool result, and you find yourself THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE GAME making tough choices on what to get next. This alone kept me highly motivated even during the long, lonely stretches to a cultural victory. Kudos, Brad, on that one!

CONCERNS:

* I still have the trading issue on my brain. I was *never* in positive figures on my econ from turn one, yet the tributes from trade kept me able to fund everything at the absolute highest levels. The minor civs in particular seemed to be sitting on huge piles of cash, offering me many times 100b.c. for 50 turns! I understand (yes!) that the higher AI levels aren't going to be this easy, so perhaps we ignore this for now?
* UI: Good overall, but so many frustrating things...like the view hoping around needlessly (even when the 'follow auto-pilot' is turned off). Or when you want to locate the planet where something is being produced and you click on the right-side planet summary, if some other screen is open in the main window, that screen won't go away unless you manually click for it to do so ... and then the right screen will drop off!
* TRADE INTERFACE! I've written about this on GalCiv, but please, please, please make an 'auto-resolve trade' for the amounts offered (not the techs, of course) OR when I am using the slider to set my offer, please let the text just turn green as I hit the right amount instead of having me submit check text submit check text over and over and over. Maybe I'm just too freaky on this point, but it wears me down after a while...
* Oh, don't know if the first update caught this (I just d/l'd it at work now!), but on one of the planet summary pages, the planets are listed with 'Moral' instead of 'Morale' -- entirely different ratings, I would say!

Well, my final score was 2618, which looking at Metaverse, is decent. However, I was only on Normal AI, so nothing to brag about here. It's a testament to you, Brad, that even after playing all day and finding these various things to niggle about, that I'm eager to rush back home, apply the update and bonuspack, and get back to it!

	30-03-2003 04:12									#48
	Remove this text

Oh, by the way, my movement issue was solved by, of course, doing more focused tech research in that area. Easy answer, yes I'm stupid!

	31-03-2003 20:55									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

O.K. Mopping up (I hope!) my win on Challenging. I'll address at the bottom why this hasn't already been won. Before getting into a brief description of how the game itself played, let me just say that this is truly a game worthy any strategy gamer's time! We are seeing the makings of a classic here, folks!

A quick summary of my plus and minuses after some serious play time (30 hours+) should make this clear.

The Good:

--The summary report that starts each reload of a saved game really helps to reorient you to how you left things off. This screen also drops you back to your current research item so you don't forget.
-- Version 1.01 is already making nice UI changes. For example, if your planets already have a next item in its Social queue, you don't drop to that planet's production screen (you used to drop down to it for no real reason). I do think, though, that a little note should appear on the 'production complete' screen telling you what the next item in the queue is!
-- "Bright" AI level is much more savvy than "Normal" in how it values tech! However, once the AI falls behind you, it still seems too easy to make a killing on tech trades. Still, the AI levels actually have a marked difference on gameplay without AI cheats!
-- They incorporated a fan's idea to add 'Star Density' options to the startup screen! This is very nice as you can now decide if stars come in tight clusters or scattered. This makes a *huge* difference in the way you play the game. Other options are being suggested as well, such as a corner starting location, a central starting location, etc. I'd be surprised if some of this isn't incorporated soon!
-- They've already improved the startup screen in other ways as well. While the first version was usable enough, this one is more polished and user-friendly. Watch for similar updates over the coming months!
-- The Governor system rocks!!! I think Stardock is dead-on when they say that a smart governor is a UI problem not an AI problem. Right on! By having templates setup for my planets, I get the result I want very single time. Sure, depending on circumstances, I might tweak individual planet's priorities, but that's it. Clean. Simple. And you can set up to 4 different governor templates for your planets, so some can be set to focus on one thing over another.
-- Different United Planet issues come up for votes, and some of these are serious issues, like the number of trade routes (trade is your #1 money maker). And the number of morale choices you have to make seems varied as well. In other words, there is almost always something fresh in each game!
-- The options screen shows your current completion of any of the various victory conditions you set. Of course, you don't see how the OTHER guy is doing, so this is not quite the insight you might think...but it's very nice nonetheless.
-- Again, the AI *really does* notice your weaknesses and works on them, particularly your military weakness. If you don't have at least a good defensive force, be prepared to be attacked by evil and perhaps by good if you don't spent time keeping your relationships close.
-- Yes, relationships actually matter! For example, a friendly AI civ gifted me, on his own, some ships when I went to war in my 'valiant attempt against the Drengin!' 'We believe our destiny goes and [sic] and hand with humans. Therefore we are joining the war on your side against the Drengin Empire." And you know what? It actually went to war on my side by sending in an attack force!!! Think about that a moment ...
-- When war starts, a warning video starts remind you of the importance of protecting your trade routes. Nice, because losing your trade routes is a sure way to put yourself in big, big trouble.
-- The AI really does know where there has been a power shift. The Drengin declared war on me because my military was weak. After I got a big force ready (I had been sitting on lots of money so I could do this), and after I got other good guys to go against him with me, they came back and begged for peace. The message here was really funny, something like: "We completely misjudged you and now beg for mercy." LOL!
-- There are PEACEFUL! ways to resolve many issues. For example, as I had begun to clear out some of the Drengin space, I took out one of his starbases on a key resource. However, a friend closer to the war location sent in his constructor ships to claim this resource the starbase was on for himself. Now, normally you'd have to attack HIM to get it back, but instead I called him up and bought it off him (at a high price, of course). But this allowed me to avoid another war with a friend and had the benefit of making that friend a bit more helpful in the war!!!
-- Anti-matter missiles, which can effectively take out any of one thing -- like a monster ship -- are a wonderful way to kill that civ that is 'turtling' before it dies. For example, as I got the Drengin cornered, he put some Dreadnaughts on defense on his planets. These suckers have lots of hitpoints, etc. Now, this would normally have taken a lot of losses for me from my own ships to clear out. But with anti-matter missiles --blam!-- removed. This rewards, that is, the guy who has air superiority. Since he was no longer strong enough to field ships in space against my own to take out my anti-matter missiles, he deserves to get whooped. Loved it!
-- Civs can break off to form a "Free [civ name]" empire! In other words, the game can and does shift in interesting ways all throughout.
-- Civs can also miraculously find huge, unique techs when there are nearly dead. But you are given warning before they 'bounce back'--this means even a dead civ can't be left alone for too long without some resolution cause you never know if it will rebound!
-- These splinter civs can form the League of Non-Aligned Worlds and pool their resources against you! Wow. That one is awesome...

CONCERNS/SUGGESTIONS:

--AI needs to use its survey ships throughout the game. They seem to operate a while and stop.
-- Would be nice for the mini-map to show which areas of space have been explored, are currently in view, etc.
-- AI sometimes lets resources sit forever in space.
-- B.C. (money) slider won't go in increments of 1 at higher levels of money! Let us type in an amount or please fix the slider!
-- You can setup proxy attacks with no repercussions? For example, I can have a friend attack a friend, yet we all stay friends? Needs a fix.
-- AI's declaration of war isn't clear!!! It will make threats but never (hardly ever?) actually say "We are at war." So you have to click to another screen after each threat to see if he actually declared war. Needs a fix.
-- On the military governor screen, please let me multiple select items so I can switch A, B, C to X all in one try! Currently you can only switch A to X then have to repeat for each item one by one...
-- Starbase text that explains the improvements get truncated.
-- BIG ONE: The option to offer an Alliance does not show up unless you are in 'Close' relationship. This might make sense at first, but it looks like a bug otherwise! If I have the tech to offer an alliance, let me offer it!!! Just have the AI refuse. This one really hurt me in my current game.

Well, my current game on 'Challenging' was winnable because one of the bad guys had a really bad starting position and this allowed me to be on the good side and call in friends to attack the one viable bad guy. But I can say that the larger map (I had been on small before and went with medium or something on this one) really affects the game in dramatic ways! When you can't start tech trading early, you also can't go into debt so easily otherwise you'll bottom out and have nothing being produced! I found myself in this position and loved it!

Also, since I was going for an alliance victory, I had to be really smart about how to manage when and where I'd fight. I spent a good amount of time keeping the right folks happy with me. I also kept good defenses up so I wouldn't be an opportune target. It all makes 'human' sense and plays naturally...as such, winning is very, very rewarding.

My only big complaint is the Alliance option not showing up. In this game I've got civs as 'Friendly' to me, yet I saw no way to offer an alliance. I seriously thought this was a bug, but the folks on GalCiv tell me that the option to offer alliance is only open when they are 'Close' to you. Huh? What's the point of negotiations if I can only offer something that will be accepted? Makes no sense!

On a plus side, this alliance victory option is awesome (if I get it to work, that is!). I'm exactly at that moment in the game where I don't want to fight anymore and everybody but the dead guy is happy with me any way. So an allied victory will take away the hours and hours of unwanted war!!! I really hope the 'Close' issue will solve my problem.

While I still want to play the next AI level up (Tough), I think I'm awfully close to giving GalCiv the highest review of a strategy game EVER!!!

	31-03-2003 21:05									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hey, it didn't bump my post! LOL!

	31-03-2003 22:24									#51
	Remove this text

Hm, now I'm really eager to play this game...

	01-04-2003 00:10									#52
	Tired of ads?

vmxa1, I haven't tried this, but was told it works: find someone that dislikes your intended target, and strike up a deal with them where you'll trade them X in return for you attacking your target. Sometimes they'll even cough up big bucks/tech. Supposedly it gets around the Senate, since they don't control what you offer diplomatically, but once the deal is made, you're at war.

	01-04-2003 02:31									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Eric S vmxa1, I haven't tried this, but was told it works: find someone that dislikes your intended target, and strike up a deal with them where you'll trade them X in return for you attacking your target. Sometimes they'll even cough up big bucks/tech. Supposedly it gets around the Senate, since they don't control what you offer diplomatically, but once the deal is made, you're at war.

I may try this next time I get in the box. It turned out that a galactic event occurred that forced all races into Imperialism. I when to war with nearly everyone on the next turn. Well I attack one race and several others were allied and jumped in on me, so I waxed them too, hehe.
One other thing occurred a lot after that and that is many minor races surendered to me, which I did not want. It was a cultural thing.

	01-04-2003 04:46									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I just finished a game with all the empires on intelligent.......with the new patch the enemy empires will not change their standing based on giving them techs.....even a bunch doesn't seem to change their minds about you..........They recognized my culture bomb strategy and destroyed all my culture starbases.........fortunately the damage was done and the snowball effect was too much.........but now I am going to have to marshal 4 to 6 groups of 10 for larger empires.........

Wait til you get to intelligent.......its a different world out there.........

	01-04-2003 05:44									#55
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by yin26 While I still want to play the next AI level up (Tough), I think I'm awfully close to giving GalCiv the highest review of a strategy game EVER!!!

Of course, I'm still trying to get over the shock of reading that you've spent 30+ hours on it.

	01-04-2003 06:19									#56
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This is more of an impression of the support so far for the game.

the stardock program is nice, and i must say, that seeing the lead developer give regular updates and actually respond to many forum posts (on the galciv site)is very encouraging. I've never seen that before, but I admittedly haven't been on many other forums for other games.

There have already been minor updates addressing some things that players have brought up so far.

Perhaps a lesson here for other game developers.


If it lasts, who knows...

	01-04-2003 18:26									#57
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Of course, I'm still trying to get over the shock of reading that you've spent 30+ hours on it.

LOL! Yeah, it's been a long, long time since I fit 30 hours in on a game over a 3-day period only to think: Cool, there's still so much left to try! You can really make as hard or as big a game as you like. Wonderful stuff.

My current game is on the 'Painful' level of difficulty! All AIs are set to 'Intelligent' -- and there are still a few levels above this. I am noticing, however, that I'm giving myself to big a plus by staying Good. That is, by default, the game starts with effectively to Evil civs, so with a little diplomacy, you'll soon have 4 Good v 2 Evil. Not a fair fight for any human players, let alone the AI.

vee4473:

Yes, this model of game production will, I hope, prove so successful that others will follow. I think Brad has truly pioneered something here.

	01-04-2003 19:15									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I have to agree! this is definitely a classic, i cant recall any other game that offered 2 patches and a bonuspack within a week of realease, or a company who devotes them selves to at east a years worth of fixes, free updates etc.

The game itself is incredibly fun, i have played at least 6 hours a day for the last 5 days Luckily im on night shift at my bank, so have 7 hours to pass each night...cant beat getting paid to play GalCiv

Hopefully with some additional features, such as rally points, a few more ships, and more suggestions, Gav-Civ will become my favourite Turn Based game ever

	01-04-2003 19:58									#59
	Support Apolyton

When can we start complaining about bringing back end-game micro-management headaches?

M

	02-04-2003 02:15									#60
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It seems Yin finally found his Yang. Now I have to check this out as well!

Welcome back Yin