28-03-2003 00:30									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov First, I think calling me a moron is uncalled for, and under the current moderator policy of being stricter on personal attacks, entirely inappropriate coming from you.

It was far milder than my original reaction. "Stricter" doesn't mean everyone has to tiptoe around.

Dan and I were pretty clear on what has likely happened, and you interjected your flippant little retort that was off base by miles.

quote: Second, I was simply addressing the issue, which Starchild raised, of whether or not a woman's death is, in and of itself, more tragic than a man's.

And I'd already responded to that point.

quote: I was not addressing the specific manner of her death. If a man was gangraped and butchered (which also isn't unheard of), it would be just as terrible, IMO.

The "other issue" was already implied clearly enough for several to recognize it. She wasn't on the video, either live or dead, whereas the other lost members of that unit were. Since she's not likely to be a natural SERE expert as a gift from God, her absense from that video leads to a presumption that she's been segregated and singled out for "special" treatment.

Yes, similar torture inflicted on a male would be just as terrible.

quote: Her death is tragic no matter what, because a young life has been snuffed out by others before its time.

We actually agree on one point.

	28-03-2003 00:31									#32
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Ah sloww, you're as gentlemanly as you are hu...err, well we'll just leave those rumours to the side, shall we?

	28-03-2003 00:32									#33
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First of all I want to say that I'm very sorry she was stolen from her loved ones. Seems like she was/is sweet girl.

This is the biggest reason I don't want women in army. I serve with them sure, and have respect for them, just like any other guy, but there are certain problems like these. Also these are big blows to morale. You guys said they won't let women to combat in the front? If they were aloud to do that, I believe many men would have problems because they would feel the need to protect her, even if she was a good soldier who can take care of herself. It's human nature I guess.. so those are big problems. There are many jobs in the army that are very suitable for women too, like the one she was doing for example.. too bad they got ambushed though.. I don't mean to be chauvinist, but if it was up to me, I wouldn't let women in the army. Only as medics in back lines where it's safer. Not because they couldn't fight, but because men are like that.

	28-03-2003 00:33									#34
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I also believe that if they were captured, the men would try to protect her and could not take it if the enemy was giving some hard interrogation and beatings.. they'd spill their guts out. Of course these are not facts, but this is the way I see it, until proven otherwise.

edit: and as a sidenote, if I captured woman soldier, I wouldn't rape her or kill her because she would be more valuable alive. Maybe more valuable than the men. So I don't know, maybe she still is with us? I hope so..

	28-03-2003 00:34									#35
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Rumours? That's one of my favourite albums.


Other than that, don't believe all you hear.

	28-03-2003 00:42									#36
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It was far milder than my original reaction. "Stricter" doesn't mean everyone has to tiptoe around. Dan and I were pretty clear on what has likely happened, and you interjected your flippant little retort that was off base by miles.

I wasn't responding to what you and Dan had said...I was responding to Starchild's post. That's why I quoted his post in mine. While you might think everyone would be addressing your almighty posts, that wasn't the case here. I don't have a clue as to what you're getting offended at.

quote: And I'd already responded to that point.

Good for you--but I was responding to Starchild.

quote: The "other issue" was already implied clearly enough for several to recognize it. She wasn't on the video, either live or dead, whereas the other lost members of that unit were. Since she's not likely to be a natural SERE expert as a gift from God, her absense from that video leads to a presumption that she's been segregated and singled out for "special" treatment.

That's all terrible, and grounds for concern...but I wasn't addressing that at all.

quote: Yes, similar torture inflicted on a male would be just as terrible. We actually agree on one point.

Well, two, then, but I'm not at all sure what you're disagreeing with in what I initially said.

	28-03-2003 00:57									#37
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider How so, comrade?

the "drift" is that she is feared dead, and to my knowledge, there has been no confirmation.

the fact that she might have been captured, rather than killed, combined with the fact that she is a decent looking woman serving the "infadels", could lead to things i would deem worse than death.

i fear for all soldiers captured by a dying regime.

	28-03-2003 01:52									#38
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For the record, eight soldiers from the 507th Maintenance Company went missing after the March 23 ambush. Two are women.

Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch, 19, Palestine, W.Va.
Army Spc. James Kiehl, 22, Comfort, Texas
Army Pvt. Brandon Sloan, 19, Bedford Heights, Ohio
Army Pfc. Lori Piestewa, 22, Tuba City, Ariz.
Army Sgt. Donald Walters, 33, Salem, Ore.
Army Master Sgt. Robert J. Dowdy, 38, Cleveland, Ohio
Army Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, 18, El Paso, Texas
Army Chief Warrant Officer Johnny Villareal Mata, 35, El Paso, Texas

Source

I wonder why The Sun didn't do a story about Lori Piestewa.

	28-03-2003 01:56									#39
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Edit. Thinking of wrong woman.
Lot of Texans.

	28-03-2003 02:01									#40
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quote: because she wasn't pictured alive?

More likely because she isn't a blonde "country girl".

However, she is a mother of two young children and that makes the situation all the more tragic.

	28-03-2003 02:08									#41
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We cross-posted, but I doubt that's the case.

	28-03-2003 02:13									#42
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It's a shame that wars aren't fought by the 4ssholes that start them.

	28-03-2003 02:15									#43
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Whatever happened to the days when the king would have to lead the soldiers? Or at least the generals...

	28-03-2003 02:15									#44
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Sloww: We're talking about The Sun. You can be sure there were some editorial decisions made.

	28-03-2003 02:19									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It's a shame that wars aren't fought by the 4ssholes that start them.

Or at least not be started by chickenshit draft-dodgers.

	28-03-2003 02:22									#46
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The professor of my military history class and a veteran captain of the Korean War said "It's only the pilots who are willing to go to war again because they never see the faces of the people they kill."

I know Bush was defending us from Ho's Migs in the Gulf of Mexico, but an airforce boy nonetheless.

	28-03-2003 02:25									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Or at least not be started by chickenshit draft-dodgers.

And remember all the crap that Clinton got for being a draft-dodger? Those same ignorant conservative voices are strangely silent.

	28-03-2003 08:18									#48
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To say that it would be better to be dead because of the possibility (or probabilty) of rape is simply patronizing. Torture is torture. I feel sorry for anyone captured by Hussein's regime, male or female.

	28-03-2003 08:42									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara To say that it would be better to be dead because of the possibility (or probabilty) of rape is simply patronizing. Torture is torture. I feel sorry for anyone captured by Hussein's regime, male or female.

Think long and hard - most nations, and most of what passes for fighters in a losing army of a despotic regime, realize that "torture" of EPW's is a no-no.

If in fact she is/was gang-raped, she may still be held for that purpose. Do you think that the perpetrators of that crime will then magically abide by their obligations and repatriate her as a live witness?

A lot of severely tortured prisoners may not be "found" at the end of this war. The five on video are harder to do anything to, because it's confirmed that they were captured alive.

	28-03-2003 08:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I wasn't responding to what you and Dan had said...I was responding to Starchild's post. That's why I quoted his post in mine. While you might think everyone would be addressing your almighty posts, that wasn't the case here. I don't have a clue as to what you're getting offended at.

Your semantic games are a lot more transparent than you think. I don't care who you were responding to, you were responding to the topic of the thread, not carrying out a private conversation. And your response was flippant and assinine.

	28-03-2003 08:52									#51
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Not to troll, but does anyone really think the US (or any other nation for that matter) doesn't use the same tactics?
I'm not talking about raping, but certainly torture is done by everyone.

	28-03-2003 09:06									#52
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We don't use torture. Ignore reports out of Afganistan that two subjects died of torture in US hands. WE DON'T USE TORTURE. I don't care what evidence you have, we don't use torture. Even if you had a tape, it would obviously have to be faked.

We don't start wars either.

	28-03-2003 09:11									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Your semantic games are a lot more transparent than you think. I don't care who you were responding to, you were responding to the topic of the thread, not carrying out a private conversation. And your response was flippant and assinine.

Oh get over it. I was making an ironic comment, directed at Starchild's question, that was only mocking the notion that women are somehow weaker than men. It was sarcasm, nothing more. I thought before you had read into it some terrible offensive thing that isn't there, but now I am wondering if it is because you happen to really believe that and are offended by someone mocking that notion. That isn't the case, I hope?

	28-03-2003 09:16									#54
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No, I just find your simpering sarcasm to be annoying and tasteless in a thread dealing with a soldier who is MIA.

	28-03-2003 09:20									#55
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Yeah, well considering others posted flippant remarks before me, and mine wasn't directed at the victim, but those who would seek to demean her, I can only say tough noogies.

	28-03-2003 09:22									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We don't use torture. Ignore reports out of Afganistan that two subjects died of torture in US hands. WE DON'T USE TORTURE. I don't care what evidence you have, we don't use torture. Even if you had a tape, it would obviously have to be faked.

, Let's do a little faking of our own, shall we? **** "reports out of Afghanistan" with sources conveniently omitted. Let's not mention that it was an official inquiry by the US into the cause of death of two prisoners that determined that the cause of death was homicide, and that further investigation was warranted into the circumstances of their death. Let's ignore the fact that that investigation is ongoing, and had the US wanted to bury the whole thing under the rug, you and I wouldn't have heard about it. In other words, we identified the issue, and we're taking action.

Yes, let's omit facts and try to create some semblance of an (im)moral equivalence when there is none.

quote: We don't start wars either.

Sure we do, and in this case, the government that we're fighting needs to be wiped from the planet earth. Who started the war and/or why is irrelevant, but let's not miss a chance to get in a "bad, evil US imperialist" dig.

	28-03-2003 10:33									#58
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quote: Originally posted by AnnC For the record, eight soldiers from the 507th Maintenance Company went missing after the March 23 ambush. Two are women. Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch, 19, Palestine, W.Va. Army Spc. James Kiehl, 22, Comfort, Texas Army Pvt. Brandon Sloan, 19, Bedford Heights, Ohio Army Pfc. Lori Piestewa, 22, Tuba City, Ariz. Army Sgt. Donald Walters, 33, Salem, Ore. Army Master Sgt. Robert J. Dowdy, 38, Cleveland, Ohio Army Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, 18, El Paso, Texas Army Chief Warrant Officer Johnny Villareal Mata, 35, El Paso, Texas Source I wonder why The Sun didn't do a story about Lori Piestewa.

There may have been some spin and BS reasons, considering it's The Sun, but there's also 8 MIA and 7 bodies on the video in question, separate from the 2 confirmed KIA.

Until the bodies on the video are positively identified by one means or another, they'd still normally be classified as MIA and the two KIA are other soldiers whose bodies were recovered, or whose deaths were positively confirmed in some way.

8 MIA, 7 bodies on video means one totally unaccounted for. Given that there's obviously been some analysis of the video to see what happened, it's possible that tentative, as yet unofficial identifications of some or all of the dead were made.

I think that all of their stories are worth knowing.

	28-03-2003 10:42									#59
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quote: Originally posted by alva Not to troll, but does anyone really think the US (or any other nation for that matter) doesn't use the same tactics? I'm not talking about raping, but certainly torture is done by everyone.

Actually, in the vast majority of cases, we don't. Unlawful combatants in Afghanistan with potential intel value is another, separate issue (and they've passed from military to CIA custody, so their handling isn't really relevant to what the military will do)

In the last Gulf war, coalition forces handled in excess of 80,000 POW's in a matter of weeks, and the great majority of them in the four days of the ground campaign.

There wasn't time, even if we had the inclination, and there are really only a couple of basis for torture anyway - gratuitous brutality and sadism, which we generally don't tolerate, and coercive interrogation to get tactical intel information.

We know from experience with top-down armies with conscripts and rigid, centralized command structures that common soldier EPWs, and even junior officers, don't know much worth bothering with. Other than the typical name, rank, ID number and unit stuff required by the GC, we don't care. Just move 'em down the road.

Higher level prisoners, or interrogations in the field, well, it's just impossible to say that nothing ever happens, but it's neither official policy, nor is there any official tolerance. The worst claims regarding US forces in the last gulf war basically consisted of rough handling in transit - shoving people around, searching them less than gently, but no major injuries or deaths. We have an incentive in this war and had the same incentive in the last war, to encourage the enemy to surrender, not to discourage him from doing so.

	28-03-2003 10:50									#60
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MtG, great posts

I share yours and Dan's veiw on this issue

EDIT: tho, i might be a bit biased... i think more highly of women, than i do of men, typically, do to my life experiences and such. Rationally, under the same circumstances i agree that a mans death adn a womans death are equally tragic... but in the back of my mind i would feel a little bit more tragedy from the woman's death.