03-04-2003 05:36									#31
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I think everyone agrees that Bismark should be the main leader of Germany, he's one of the best choices of main leaders in the game.

I was arguing that Rommel should have been included as great leader.

	03-04-2003 05:54									#32
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I agree with you also, Jarvin.

	03-04-2003 06:04									#33
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come on people, just open the editor, add Rommel, Guderian, Manstein, etc etc etc. it's really that easy

Funny but the Aztecs are the civ with the most leaders even though most people have no clue who they were (and to tell you the truth, even my Mexican self didn't know who some of them were...)

	03-04-2003 06:10									#34
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I know that you can edit them, I just wanted to point it out, and I wanted to see if anyone else noticed other odd tidbits (such as your Aztec example. Very interesting I have only ever heard of Monteczuma)

	03-04-2003 09:56									#35
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist I think that Cleopatra and Joan were horrible choices. Joan never actually led France. Cleopatra was a Greek descendent who ruled thousands of years after Egypt had reached the peek of its power.

Kleopatra was born in Egypt- saying that she was descended from the Greek Ptolemaic line is like pointing out George Washington's family came from England.

She was the first of the Ptolemies to learn the language of the Egyptians, she was exceptionally learned and well read, she managed to defeat her half sister, her brother and identified herself closely with the cult of Isis.

Frankly, if you wanted a better female leader of Egypt, the only choice you'd make would be Hatshepsut- and not many people are aware of her reign.

For the choices of leaders to be 'p.c.' it would mean that the game makers envisaged a large market for female leaders and were anxious to either placate or not offend people with those expectations . I doubt that this was the case at all.

As for Catherine the Great- there is a reason she's called the Great. Comparing her reign to Peter's would reveal the extent to which Russia modernized under Catherine and grew- Peter opened a window on the West, Catherine enlarged it to landscape size.

	03-04-2003 11:34									#36
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Well, wouldn't you agree making Cleopatra black was pretty pc atleast?

	03-04-2003 13:25									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Merc Well, wouldn't you agree making Cleopatra black was pretty pc atleast?

Yep. At this rate in about 200 years the catholic church might put jesus a little browner too...

Joan of Arc I think was a poor choice since she never ruled over France and I think that's the distinction between having a ruler and a great leader (who were usually military or lesser political heroes). Considering that France has produced leaders with the stature of Louis XIV and Napoleon.

Catherine the Great was a good choice, plus she looks like my grandmother I still miss Civ1's Stalin with his despotism henchmen in the background though...

I would have also switched Elizabeth for Victoria.

	03-04-2003 15:06									#38
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There were many better german generals in WW2 than Rommell. He was overated. Manstein would be a better choice.

	03-04-2003 20:13									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Jarvin I believe Rommel was more loyal to Germany than he was to the nazis, thats why he tried to kill Hitler when the war turned bad.

Rommel wasn't an active participant in the 7/20/44 assissination attempt. He'd been approached by the conspirators, decided not to join, but didn't inform Hitler of it. That's why Hitler told him to kill himself or watch his family die.

I've been reading a novel called Fox at the Front recently, which takes an alternate history track: Hitler is in fact killed on 7/20/44, Himmler takes over Germany, concludes an armisitice with the Soviet Union, and Rommel is returned to active command of the western front after recovering from his wounds suffered in an Allied air raid on 7/17/44. I'm not finished it yet, but I think I'd still recommend it. Kind of scary to see how formidable Nazi Germany could have been with competent leadership.

	03-04-2003 20:19									#40
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Himmler would have been a worse leader than Hitler.

	04-04-2003 09:48									#41
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quote: I'm undecided about Isabella, but I feel about the same way towards her as I do towards Cat.

Well, Isabella was the Queen who patronized the travels of Columbus to America, wasn't she? That's a fundamental reason of her being a leader. Well, her reign also endured for a pretty long time, since she got to the throne with what? 7-8 years old, perhaps a little more or less. She did a decent job.

	04-04-2003 15:30									#42
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quote: Well, Isabella was the Queen who patronized the travels of Columbus to America, wasn't she? That's a fundamental reason of her being a leader. Well, her reign also endured for a pretty long time, since she got to the throne with what? 7-8 years old, perhaps a little more or less. She did a decent job.

And not to mention that Isabella is very probably the first one that comes to mind when naming Spanish leaders. Generally Firaxis did quite good job when choosing personalities to represent civilizations.

Not as good with great leaders, though. But, in the end they're so trivial in Civ3 that it doesn't really make a difference. After all, when you get a GL, it goes straight away in exchange for production. It's kind of pointless to argue their names and all that, because they currently don't have any individual attributes and are all used for the same purpose. And when you can get 30 or 40 GLs during a good all-out-war game, you're bound to see Barbarossa appear like at 500 BC, again at 200 AD, then 400AD and so on, no matter how many leaders are listed there. I wouldn't mind even if there was only one military leader, named Generic.

	04-04-2003 19:39									#43
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Heh, Generic Great Leader would sound like a soldier that can be found in the local stores. What about Common?

All my leaders are Pedro Jedi. After all, he was a great figure at all times for all civilizations.

Yeah, I'm so modest!

	04-04-2003 23:24									#44
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The point about Rommel is that he tried to be a good soldier until it became appearant that the Fu"hrer was a few fighters short of a squadron in the kopf, then he tried to be an assassin, but failed at that. His tragic fate was all but sealed when he agreed to support Hitler. Was he someone who could have gone to Berlin and rushed the Manhattan Project for Germany?

	04-04-2003 23:31									#45
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How about Area Man and Area Woman? Their heroic efforts make the papers around here all the time. :-)

	04-04-2003 23:40									#46
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Napoleon == Coolest French guy ever.

Glad they kept Bismarck. What were the alternatives though? There's no way they'd put Hitler in. Kaiser II is a stretch. I could see Frederick II though.

Yes, the lists could use some work. I think that may be more of a general lack of information than PC, though PC runs rampant among the national leaders...

Bring back Napoleon!!!

	05-04-2003 00:46									#47
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Bring back Stalin and his despotism goon-squad from Civ1!!!

whenever I think of the phrase MY WORDS ARE BACKED BY NUCLEAR WEAPONS I think of that image from times of yore....

	05-04-2003 00:53									#48
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Comments.
German GL, what about Admiral Doernitz. (He commanded the u-boat fleet during ww2 for those unfamiliar with the name)

Boudicea would have been a far better choice for the Celt leader, or failing that, a celt GL.

English GLs,
John Churchill, Duke of Marlborough (perhaps England's greatest general)
Willian Slim, commanded the 14th Army from a humiliating defeat in Burma to deal Japan it's worst land defeat of ww2.

French GLs,
Henri de la d'Auvergne, Vicomte de Turenne
As far as De Gaulle is concerned, a quote from Winston churchill. "He has a head like a pineapple and hips like a woman."

	05-04-2003 01:33									#49
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I agree with Wazell. Arguing about GLs is pointless, they just appear in the game for a brief moment before they are exchanged for some production. "Oh, but what about the historical flavor?". Hm... Cleopatra living 6000 years, anyone?

	05-04-2003 03:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Alexnm I agree with Wazell. Arguing about GLs is pointless, they just appear in the game for a brief moment before they are exchanged for some production. "Oh, but what about the historical flavor?". Hm... Cleopatra living 6000 years, anyone?

Well it'd be even more of a laugh seeing Genghis Khan in 2003 with a suit and tie in the floor of the UN General Assembly ranting something barely legible like "me kill babies, rape women then eat your corn flakes!!"

	06-04-2003 23:58									#51
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I hate it when people say that Hitler should be the German leader, and anyone who says something else is trying to be politically correct. Hitler screwed things up big time. He got his country conquered. Some people have become so anti-PC that their judgement is obscured. It's really silly. However, the TR generals, Rommel in particular, were very strong. They should be included.

	07-04-2003 00:17									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior I hate it when people say that Hitler should be the German leader, and anyone who says something else is trying to be politically correct. Hitler screwed things up big time. He got his country conquered. Some people have become so anti-PC that their judgement is obscured. It's really silly. However, the TR generals, Rommel in particular, were very strong. They should be included.

No more than some PC extreme people have too. You cannot deny that no other man caused as much impact in the world during the last 100 years. Napoleon got his country conquered too so under that standard neither would be apt.

The only reason I believe Hitler should NOT be the German leader is because I think it is unfair to the German people and their history that such a racist bigot represent them. However, for his leadership abilities and his impact on German and world history, he is defenitely suitable though I still think Bismark or Fredrick are the better choices.

	07-04-2003 00:52									#53
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WOW Master Zen !!! When did you change the .jpg??

	07-04-2003 01:02									#54
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quote: Originally posted by epics WOW Master Zen !!! When did you change the .jpg??

5 minutes ago...


BTW, I would have loved to see Beowulf as a leader

	07-04-2003 01:56									#55
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Master Zen uses his zen technics to change his appearance at will.

edit: I can't type that well