03-04-2003 09:50									#31
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 STYOM: Some will, but according to this study, there should be fewer infections, and fewer people having unsafe sex if they do not have abortion as a backup. Condoms don't prevent all STD's. If this method worked, we would see a decline, but instead, the numbers continue to rise. All condoms do is encourage more people to engage in unsafe behavior.

You're exaggerating. I hear they can also prevent pregnancy Condoms do prevent some STDs. Not all, of course. But then, banning abortion wouldn't stop all STDs, either.

All this 'study' seems to be is a conclusion that STD rates have gone up since abortion is legalized. That's a coincidence, at least. The causality is questionable. You could blame rock music, or video games, or progressively more raunchy movies, or Bill Clintons sexual escapades for the spread of STDs, if you had chosen to make any of those your personal windmill to tilt at.

	03-04-2003 10:00									#32
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quote: Condoms don't prevent all STD's.

The only one I've heard they don't protect against is crabs (since they're in the bush rather than on the skin). Which other ones do you feel they don't protect against?

	03-04-2003 10:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: Condoms don't prevent all STD's. The only one I've heard they don't protect against is crabs (since they're in the bush rather than on the skin). Which other ones do you feel they don't protect against?

Molluscum contagiosum:

http://www.ashastd.org/stdfaqs/molcon.html

Scabies can be transmitted through sexual contact:

http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdo.../en/scabies.htm

And of course the unlovely human papilloma virus:

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/stdhpv.htm

	03-04-2003 10:10									#34
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon People get STDs on the main throught having unprotected sex. Therefore, it is highly unlikely you will get an STD if you are abstinant or having safe sex. So why should you be enforcing your will on others? It's their own risk they're taking.

preservation of the gene pool isn't just their own risk. their children could be born with the disease that their slut of a mother contracted that one night she did the whole football team.

	03-04-2003 10:16									#35
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Molluscum contagiosum: http://www.ashastd.org/stdfaqs/molcon.html Scabies can be transmitted through sexual contact: http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdo.../en/scabies.htm And of course the unlovely human papilloma virus: http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/stdhpv.htm

I'd never even heard of molluscum whatever. Seems benign. Scabies are a joke...might as well put lice.

I hadn't realised that genital warts were spread even with condom, though. Thank you...

That's the only one mentioned with potentially serious side effects (sterility, cervical cancer possible, though not likely, IIRC)

	03-04-2003 10:42									#36
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quote: It adds to the overall cost to society for providing abortions. If STD rates go up, then the medical system, particularly in places like Canada, the taxpayers have to pay more.

Well that balances out the study that said that crime was reduced in the US because of abortions. Because poor women had less children, we had less impoverished young men (about 20-30 years after Roe) who would be more likely to commit crimes.

So it all balances out in the end .

	03-04-2003 10:51									#37
	Re: New source for STD's in the US Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 http://mason.gmu.edu/~jklick/std.pdf The abstract: The risk of an unwanted pregnancy represents one of the major costs of sexual activity. When abortion was legalized in a number of states during the late 1960s and early 1970s (and nationally with the 1973 Supreme Court case of Roe v. Wade), this cost was reduced as women gained the option of terminating an unwanted pregnancy. We predict that abortion legalization generated incentives leading to an increase in sexual activity, accompanied by an increase in sexually transmitted diseases. Using CDC data on the incidence of gonorrhea and syphilis by state, we test the hypothesis that judicial and legislative decisions to legalize abortion lead to an increase in sexually transmitted diseases. We find that gonorrhea and syphilis incidences are significantly and positively correlated with abortion legalization. Further, we find a divergence in STD rates among early legalizing states and late legalizing states starting in 1970 and a subsequent convergence after the Roe v. Wade decision, indicating that the estimated correlation between STD rates and abortion legalization is a causal relationship. According to our estimates, abortion legalization might account for as much as one fourth of the average disease incidence, suggesting that sexual behavior is very responsive to changes in incentives.

Well, duh. Ya think ?

	03-04-2003 10:58									#38
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quote: All this 'study' seems to be is a conclusion that STD rates have gone up since abortion is legalized. That's a coincidence, at least. The causality is questionable.

STYOM:

That's a substantive critique. What strengthens the argument is that a differential in period for legalisation corresponds to a similar differential in the rate of STD transmission.

Correlation cannot produce causation, you also need a mechanism. However, I have suggested the mechanism, that women who do not have to worry about getting pregnant are less likely to take precautions when having sex. Hence, the rise in STD's resulting from abortion legalisation. Seems like a pretty clear mechanism.

	03-04-2003 11:46									#40
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What's the matter Mr. Fun?

	03-04-2003 11:49									#41
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have to concede that Obi Wan has an interesting point. Basically, he is saying that the legalization of abortion leads to people having more sex, and people having more sex leads to more STDs. I think that there are better ways of reducing STDs than making abortions illegal though.

	03-04-2003 14:15									#42
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There probably are.

I'm just getting a kick out of the people doing logical somersaults to avoid any hint of a connection.

	03-04-2003 14:28									#43
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Yes people who wnat to ban abortion on the grounds that it endangers the health of the mother long term are also being disengenuous.

I repsect much more people who just say they think abortion is wrong on moral grounds rather than dressing it up

	03-04-2003 14:31									#44
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Tell that to Planned Parenthood... They don't seem to understand that connection.

actually its funny because planned parent GIVES OUT CONDOMS! stop blaming a beloved institution (abortion) for personal failures in judgement from people

	03-04-2003 15:22									#45
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 The correlation is between the number of abortions and the STD transmission rate. This increase is over and above the rate of population growth. What is also interesting is that the rate varies according to the different dates of legalisation, in that areas that were slow to legalise abortion, actually have lower STD rates.

Less reported cases of STD, because these areas are more conservative.

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 The general conclusion is that abortion encourages people to have unsafe sex, resulting in greater STD transmission. I had thought this to be the case before, but I had no data to back me up.

That's not necessarily the case. As I said, the study relies on reported cases for one thing. There are also other factors that can significantly affect the outcome, such as demographics.

	03-04-2003 15:53									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Nor is toilet seats - watch out obiwan. Crabs can polevault.

"I got it from the toilet seat,
It jumped right up, and grabbed my meat!"

	03-04-2003 15:59									#47
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 What's the matter Mr. Fun?

He was stymied in his attempt to come up with a way to link this to hate crimes against homosexuals, or failing that the American Civil War.

	03-04-2003 16:03									#48
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couldnt the birth control pill also be blamed?

	03-04-2003 16:39									#49
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Typical. The correlation is between the number of abortions and the STD transmission rate. This increase is over and above the rate of population growth. What is also interesting is that the rate varies according to the different dates of legalisation, in that areas that were slow to legalise abortion, actually have lower STD rates.

Assuming a valid scientific method was employed, one cannot argue statistics; however, one can argue the validity of the conclusions. The correlation could also be attributed to accidental-parents having been at least partially removed from the dating pool due to parental activities; therefore, becoming a lesser statistical influence. The smaller percentage of irresponsible people will naturally have greater statistical influence.

quote: The general conclusion is that abortion encourages people to have unsafe sex, resulting in greater STD transmission. I had thought this to be the case before, but I had no data to back me up.

You still have no data to back you up. My partner has always been, and always will be the primary encouragement irrespective of any laws that man may pass. The general conclusion is more a statement of the author's opinion than a valid scientific conclusion as the author cannot correctly profile the mentality, responsibility, ethical, or moral value of the individuals.

Irresponsible people engage in irresponsible sex, and are more prone to contracting STDs and to opt for abortion rather than parenthood. Irresponsible people then are recycled into the dating scene to engage in more irresponsible behavior.

quote: Since more unsafe sex results in more abortions as well, it can be said that legalised abortion supplies its own market.

Since irresponsible people are more likely to engage in unsafe sex, irresponsible people can be said to supply the abortion market. Which is not the point of legalized abortion.

Irresponsible people may employ legalized abortion as their primary or exclusive method of birth control rather than deal with accidental parenthood. Responsible people may employ legalized abortion as the option of last resort when valid birth control methods have failed. Irresponsible people increase the demand for the abortion market. Responsible people are a smaller segment of the market.

quote: Therefore, by criminilising abortion, you will reduce the number of abortions performed in the US, as well as reducing the rate of STD transmission.

Therefore by crimilizing abortion, responsible people, whom's pesonal values and morals are not at all similar to mine, may be punished. However, irresponsible people have always, and shall continue to have a greater infuence in the transmission of STD's.

quote: That any clearer?

Yes. A compromise in the system would be more beneficial to society. Repeat offenders, male and female, could be sent to moral/ethics and sex education classes before and after an abortion. Responsible individuals should be given a break.
At the extreme, I'd rather have irresponsible repeat offenders sent to jail rather than have responsible people unduly punished.

	03-04-2003 16:40									#50
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Surely backstreet abortions contain a great risk of spreading STDs?

Ubercrux - go find a nun and convince her to marry you

IMO People aren't going to stop having sex just because abortion becomes illegal. I can't imagine me or any of my friends (gay, straight, male or female) doing it any less.

And oral sex can also transmit many STIs - it could possibly become worse as people do oral more (people tend to use protection less when it is just oral sex). It isn't clear as to whether aids can be spread via oral sex, but harmful STIs such as syphillis can.

	03-04-2003 20:57									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander He was stymied in his attempt to come up with a way to link this to hate crimes against homosexuals, or failing that the American Civil War.

No, after reading the posts in here, I agree with some of the others who have stated this is not news. Obiwan is jumping up and down with excitement as if this is a revolutionary discovery.

	03-04-2003 21:57									#52
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The trouble with the study is what troubles a lot of other studies. People assume that because something increased in correlation with an increase in something else the two must be related. The problem with the reasoning that the legalisation of abortion causes more people to get STD's because they have more sex is that a variety of different causes could increase the amount of sex going on. The causes of increased sex could be the women's liberation movement, the greater freedom of homosexuals, and the fact that the baby boom generation was at sexual maturity all at the time that abortion was legalised are more likely to have caused the rise in STDs.

I doubt that people realized that now that abortions are legal they can go at it like rabbits. ABortions in our society aren't seen as getting your appendix removed and more than likely carry serious social and phsycological effects. This is just personal experience but most of the women who have abortions do it for fincial reasons and usually involves a deeply thought out and anguished decision.

	03-04-2003 22:07									#53
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This thread is what is known as a "false cause" argument fallacy. Perhaps the newer methods of birth control, the proliferation of contraceptives, and the realization that women can be in control of their sex lives have more to do with the increased amount of sexual activity. Also, STD's are identified and diagnosed more accurately and more often than in the past. Just because more STD's are reported now doesn't mean their occurance has increased among the population. Look at Africa for Pete's sake! Roe v. Wade doesn't affect Africans, and they have the highest rate of AIDS in the world.

Education stops the spread of STD's, not banning abortion.

	03-04-2003 22:32									#54
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i dont know why but i read the title as "Open Source for STDs in the US" this time around

	03-04-2003 23:03									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Education stops the spread of STD's, not banning abortion.

I agree

	03-04-2003 23:14									#56
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Obiwan: The person who wrote this study is simply noticing a corolation and not a cause and effect relationship. As numerous other people pointed out there are several major factors (population growth, changing societial norms resulting in more sex) which have not been controlled (and probably can't be effectively controlled for thus it is not in keeping with the scientific method to attribute the resulting increase in STDs solely to the rise in Abortion rates.

	03-04-2003 23:26									#57
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Obiwan, I have five words for you:

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

	04-04-2003 05:48									#58
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quote: Obiwan is jumping up and down with excitement as if this is a revolutionary discovery.

Mr. Fun:

Revolutionary? I think I stated that I suspected this to be true, and it is nice to have one study reinforce these thoughts. Granted, it would be nice to have more, but this is a start.

Oerdin:

quote: changing societial norms resulting in more sex

The question then becomes are abortions a symptom of this societal change, or a cause? I think they came about as a result of the shift, but that this study shows abortions pushing the shift somewhat further.

quote: Education stops the spread of STD's

Some forms work better then others. Planned Parenthood's approach of use a condom every time is not working.

quote: Just because more STD's are reported now doesn't mean their occurance has increased among the population.

Best point of the bunch. I don't know about the increase in reporting incidence, which will account for the perceived increase in STD's

Still interesting to see some varience depending on the date of abortion legalisation.

However, this data would be from the 1970's, so it is not that much older.

cyclotron:
I don't know Latin. Could you translate for a Latin dummy?

	04-04-2003 06:18									#59
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It translates to:

After this, therefore because of this.

It is a classic fallacy, where an assumption is made that because A preceeds B, A caused B.

Watch for similar fallacies in your argument. Abortions become legal, then STDs increase... but that does not prove causation.

	04-04-2003 06:39									#60
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Thanks cyclotron.

It's a hypothesis, more work needs to be done to see how big of an effect legalising abortion has on the STD rate. Still, I did provide a mechanism. Does it make sense at all to avoid the fallacy of correlation = causation?